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Your Opinion on practicing with programs offline
Your Opinion on practicing with programs offline
Your Opinion on practicing with programs offline
Quote from ø Goldust ø

"all most of u guys do is use a prog or practise wiv prog which is still using prog so technically either way your cheatin 2 me"

What do you think about that?

Do you think its "cheating" or are you a "programmer" if you practice with a program offline?

Practicing with programs offline is like "revising" for your games or... "getting ready" for them.

If you have exams and you are revising for them that wouldn't be cheating.

So if practicing with a program then using the knowledge from the program is cheating that must mean that revising for tests is cheating as you are gathering knowledge from revising sheets etc.

Point im trying to make is what do you all think about practising OFFLINE with programs... are you a "programmer" or not? Most connect 4 players know its not but people just cant accept that.

Write if you think its cheating or not.

a few qoutes from fstal about this

if u memrize a book from a test and take a test and then u get an A did u cheat (not word for word)

another around the same topic
if you own a gun are u a killer 

godust just on crack :)
so hes saying ur not aloud to ever practice i memrized 95% of velnas moves and people use to think i used ive been able to play velnas moves perfect on kurnik with a full of 15 seconds ttl time proving im not chekcing on 2 computers
no way is it cheating to practice with programs offline. if you happen to play someone who is using a program, then you need to be able to stop them right!! i work hard to build up my points fairly with my skills and i hate losing them to some jerk who doesnt deserve them, afterall i went to all the trouble to master this game.why should i lose my points to some idiot no brain?
thats what the prgram errors r for if u know the program and thats why u never give any 1 via :)
I New This Topic Would Be Bias On The Fact Most Of You Grandmasters And Matsers Do This Anyway So Of Course You Wouldnt Say It's Cheating Because You Wouldnt Want Yourself Labelled As A Cheater.. Such A Bias Topic Lol.

You Guys Say Practising With Programs Is Like Revising For A Test. You Technically Wrong. The Way I See It It's Like You Found The Test Paper Before You Got The Test And Memorised The Answers Like Your Memorising The Programs Moves. I No You Lot Would Disagree With All This Because You Use Progs (Like I Said This Is A Bias Topic).

Revising For A Test Everyone Has The Equal Opportunity To Do Through Self Teach, Which Is Self Learning Through Watching Others, Like A Baby.. Learns Through What He/She Sees. Basically You Guys Are Just Taking Advantage Of Something You Have Which Makes You Better For The Test (The Answer Paper). The Fair Way Of Passing The Test Is By Building Up Knowledge Around You And Watching What You See Which Is The Study Book.

Another Example Weightlighting... Every Weightlifting Has A Equal Opportunity To Train As Much As They Want, When They Want And If You Merge It To Connect 4 Games Its The Self Learning, Watching Others Like I Said. The Program Part Of Weightlifting Is Taking Steroids To Build Up Muscle To Make You Be Able Better Than You Are. Taking Adavantage Of Something Which Is Wrong To Do.

I Know For A Fact You Guys Wont Agree With Me Because You Are All Bias, And Your Perspective Says Programs Are Fair But To Me They Arent.. Its Basically Your Opinion Against Mine And That Is The Reason Why I Dont Play You Guys.

..:: Mike3Styla ::..
goldust we all dont have imagionary brothers like u do to practice with that leanred how to play by magic
Imagionary Brother LMAO... Proving Your Own Stupidity There Because You Cant Answer My Topic... You Fail To Relise If I Was Unforgivable (Which I Aint) Why Wouldnt I Sign On As Both Name To Up Them Both At The Same Time? Some Of You Guys Just Shot Yourself In The Foot. I've Been A Member For 4 Years So Of Course I Know How To Play.
Having the test paper?? LOOOOL


Havimg a test paper gives you the exact answers that are gonna be on the test. So your saying practicing with a program gives you the exact moves as the game your gonna play? wrong

Revising is gathering the information for the test which you dont know any questions to.... practicing with the program is 
 So TECHNICALLY, your wrong which everyone will agree with.

lol thats what i use to think flames did blue :p
technically goldust building up knowledge from watching others would be cheating, as most have used program moves :O shock. i think some1 jus shot himself in the foot :p isnt that right mike? also mike you have used a program too. just like your brother flames there was a time when you both used vianiato. 
I just like to say it is actually cheating and also they do not program so stop spreading stuff and Unforgivable is not the same person as Goldust whoever says that is a complete idiot and doesnt have a brain..
Pink Wolfie before you post a reply next time you should read if I said if he programs.
I would say not.
I learned from computer a long time back when I started connect 4, (when that java applet beat me like 20 straight games). At first you learn the moves, and feel good. Then a real player beats you. And you learn to adapt not learn the moves but the strategy. I admit the strategy can be very hard with out an array of openings. 
See if I was cheating I wouldn't have went on to a certain site to play a more fair connect 4 game played on an 8x8 board and peak at rank 13 of around 2,000.
I learned the strategy and adapted it.
In connect 4 there are its over positions, when a decent player can look at a position and say he is going to win. These can be with many squares remaining. And playing against computer aids in reaching these positions.
I heard someone mentioning the gym, and steroids as an example. Well to me the training example works.
But I see it this way.
Using program = using machines at gym.
Not using programs = using your body resistance alone.

As for beginners learning by comp as I did. If there cheating, then so is any player playing a better player, or playing a position they like because another player uses it to beat them.

Just my oppinion.
oo a philosophical discussion =)

Gold u do make a good point in that memorizing a prog is more similar to memorizing an answer sheet than a textbook, because on a real life test, u really don't know what the question will be (at least with most subjects, like math or science or literature where there's an infinite # of questions a teacher could ask.  With geography you basically do get to study the answer sheet but for argument's sake i won't count that).  By memorizing a program, you are preparing for every possible question that could be asked, so it's like memorizing a mega answer sheet.  Watching players is the same thing, if all you do is memorize their moves.  So you have countered my example of testtaking (provided connect 4 is more similar to math than geography and biology).

But i still have 2 objections that come to me at the moment.  The first, not everyone who trains with a program does so by memorizing its moves, the second, the rules of the game do not prohibit the use of memory, and therefore memorization is technically not cheating, lame though it may be.

Before i argue those 2 points, i'll first respond to your weightlifting example.  

Steroids is bad for your health, and that's why it's illegal.  Taking them gives you an advantage over those who do not take them.  Not all advantages are unfair, but this advantage is.  The reason: the only way for other people to have the same chances as you is to sacrifice their health, which is an unfair thing to make others have to do.  
You tried to equate steroids to training with a program, arguing that prog training gives u an advantage over people who don't train with a prog.  And you said this advantage is unfair.  But you failed to give a reason this advantage is unfair.  I agree it is an advantage.  But unfair, no.  First of all, anyone with internet can get access to the same programs.  Second, by downloading a program, you are not forced to sacrifice anything else, as opposed to steroids which makes you sacrifice your health.  So anyone can train with a program at no cost.  If they choose not to, they are simply not training as smart (and probably not as hard) as the people who do train with progs.  So program training, i would argue, is not parallel to steroid use, but instead, parallel to working out with a personal trainer.  With a personal trainer, you are doing the best excercises and you are getting stronger faster, while working equally hard as before.  In the case of connect 4, there's an infinite supply of personal trainers, and they are all free.  So to not get one is just your own unwise decision if you're trying to improve.

Now for my first point.  Memorizing moves is not the only way to train with a program.  There are plenty of people who think about a position on their own, then when they have an answer, they compare it to the program's.  If their answer is wrong, they try to figure out why it's wrong.  Once they understand why the program's move is right and theirs was wrong, they have learned something about the game as a whole, and not just that particular position.  Their skill has improved---whether or not they remember that position in the future, they will be more likely to get that move right because they are better at thinking about moves.  

Consider learning math.  You learn by trying problems.  You try a problem, and are not certain if your answer is correct, so you check with the back of the book or with a teacher.  If your answer is wrong, you try to figure out why.  You try to see how one could get the book's answer.  Once you see how the right answer is arrived at, you've learned something about those types of problems.  Next problem you are more likely to get right, even though it has a different answer.  
The only difference between math and connect 4 is that c4 is finite, whereas math is inifnite.  Say you wanted to try to memorize all the possible answers for equations of the type: AX + B = C.  There are inifnity possible values for a, b and c, and inifnity different answers for X that can result.  Whereas connect 4 there are only so many moves that can be made, so if you wanted to, you could memorize it.  But that doesn't mean you can't learn it the same way you learn math, and not memorize.  If you choose to learn connect 4 as though it's another type of math, then you will try problems (positions) and check your answers in the back of the book (a program).  There is no difference.  One learns with the help of a teacher because it is quicker.  It is better not to reinvent the wheel.  Otherwise it would take 50 years to master the game, when you can have the same deep understanding of it in a few years (if you don't memorize moves).  Same goes with calculus.  Few people would be able to do calculus if they couldn't learn from a source other than themselves.  And even the people who did figure it out on their own (Leibniz and Newton) did not figure it out as fast as people learn it today in school.    

I don't feel like saying my second point since i just wrote an essay already.  i just wasted 20 minutes lol
Finally a good topic =)
At first: training with a program is definetely NOT cheating. It is just another way of training. For me there's only one thing to differenciate: What is real training and what is learning moves by heart?
Every player that really wants to learn the game gets beaten up badly by a good player once. Then he tries to improve. He has 4 possibilities: 
1. Playing as much as possible against better players.
2. Find a good teacher and learn from him.
3. Download a program and practice against it (until he gets beaten up badly again)
4. Finding a combination of the three upper points.

In my opinion, the 4th way is the best. The most important one is definetely the first point, because only like this you get to know as many antis as possible.
Maybe there comes the moment when the player can play any anti one way, and is bored of his easy starts. Then he wants to find his very own style. This is where two things can help: the teacher and Vianiato. You can figure out any possible start with Vianiato and learn any anti you could imagine. And here it is getting tricky: can you yourself really see all the antis another player sees? I don't think so. Of course, things like 413 or 417 look good at first sight, but it is not possible to play them perfectly only by learning them by heart, especially 417. You have to practice them with an equal player, until none of you both can imagine any further anti. Like this you really learn stuff because you discover positions that lead to a victory, really strange positions :).
Fstal is right when he says there are players that really try to figure out their moves themselves. But the majority just clicks on "solve" and looks which column has a white stripe underneath. I could name some of them, but I won't ;-)
Of course I have Vianiato, and I sometimes use it if I get broken at a weird start, just as most players do. Sometimes I envy those perfect Kurnik-players that only know one strategy for each anti, and they are content and proud of their simple starts.
So the question (for me) is: What is the relation between finding weird starts with an equal or better player and finding them using Vianiato, Titot, Mustrum, Conny, Velena, Connect4 3D etcetc?
Oh well I guess I've written lots of sh*t here, but whatever... 
Use the human mind of some good player as "program", it is faster, better and more effective.
yo aaron leave dani alone allright

everything Goldust say is true if you practice with programs
you cheat y do u need to do it just play the game fair and square with no programs
o shut it caz u pb with him daily i watch u if u practice with a program its cheating u say then how the hell u think goldust got good u think he practiced with his imagainary brother?

lol the trouble with a long post is no1 will actually read it.  

yh loil it's true most ppl don't do what i said, they just memorize, which is why there are so many people who only know 1 style.  

let's keep the insults out of this thread plz, i'd rather it go a few more days without getting locked.  ppl r entilted to their opinions.  
I have never had a prog on my computer (but now it's more a princip, that I don't get one)
But still... I don't think it's cheating to play against prog offline, because it's like playing a player with 100% start, so it would be the same wether it's with or without a person. When I trained I just sat and looked at different players, and memorized it by that... So that would somehow make me a cheater too? to look at people?
fstal ur right and i wont ever read that long poast sorry to say and i just dont get where any1 gets thats against the rules is goldust saying u should not be good in begging of fod then become better because if so i dont think he would be having only 5 losses
ohh fstal... Just read your essay :p - good points.... it just wasn't necessary to make it that long - :D !! Then there might would have been an opportunity for people to read and answer it xD
d dog leave caz alone allright she dont nothing wrong and she dont pb with him cuz im on when she is on and i have never seen het play him 
Pretty useless discussion in my opinion, who cares what ø Goldust ø thinks about that anyway?

We all know that he only plays 
less talented
 players (I'm being genle now) and hardly gives a rematch (even to those 
less talented

In his opinion everyone that is better then him are cheaters.Tha's why he only plays the same people over and over again. Because he can 
 those players. Right, because he knows he can beat those players...

I never saw him play a master or grandmaster, so who takes him serious anyway?

You could however reverse the question: Isn't someone who only plays weaker players and never gives
a rematch not more of a cheater then someone who practises with a program? 

Maybe ø Goldust ø and his brother (imaginary or not) thinks they can improve his skills by playing these weaker players, which is their good right. I personally don't believe so...

Does that mean he is a bad player? Honestly, I wouldn't know, since I never had the honour (?) of playing him. So untill ø Goldust ø is not playing good worthy opponents, he should not make such ambigues statements.

Erm im a master? and a grand master? ive played him dont i count? he plays people who he trust is that wrong? i dont think it is. look u lot wanted him to have his say in this so stop making things up or being abusive or whatever..

with all respect, but you are not a grandmaster, nor a master... I too play people I trust, occasionaly ppl I don't trust, but the people I trust aren't people I can beat easily. From the minute you should really become a grandmaster (not in rating but in skills) he will no longer play you, simply because he could not beat you. And btw I'm not being abusive or whatever. Believe me...;)

:o you have got a cheek! i play like a master.. SOMETIMES ok? i dont play like a grand master.. i aint got to that stage yet.. my skill is pretty ok thank you very much ;)
Very well PiNk_WoLfIe
I'm sure one day you will become a very good grandmaster.
Untill then keep practising against good players ;)
I do play good players.. sometimes..ok now and then..ok very rarely BUT i do play good players.. thank u ;)
playing good players dont make u a GM coz u lose all your games lmao
actually i know one grandmaster , that goldust would play. he would play dudu obom or aguia1960.but like nameless says, these are only grandmasters by rating but definately not skill.
kk i just found this post and i wanted 2 say something about pink wolfie ur not a grandmaster or a master since i played u on kurnik and broke u the first game then u left and u always had a sign on that nick ur not even an expert ur practicly a novice 

This is silly. Would you call a chess player a cheater if he/she practiced with a program?

Maybe we shouldn't let people practice at all. You should start playing a game with only the skill you were born with, and if you are ever caught learning strategy/practicing positions/memorizing moves, you should automatically be banned for life.

Just like any game, there are a variety of skills that people use to improve. Some calculate strategy, some are good with advanced combos (like me :D), some use memory. Nothing wrong with any of this. 

In fact, Chess Grandmasters have more positions memorized than you or I will ever actually see in our entire lives. Is that cheating?

What was that nonsense about only wanting to see people who don't use programs comment because of bias... errr... huh??? Is your definition of bias those who disagree with you?

If you don't want to use programs... fine... if that makes you feel better about yourself. But for you to take the moral high ground over it is beyond comprehension.

If you like, you can live the rest of your life climbing without ladders, bicycling without gears, standing at tables instead of sitting on chairs and lighting fires instead of flipping light switches because that would be "cheating". You can live half as long with twice as much difficulty if you so chose, but that doesn't in any way make you holier than me.