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[b]Iraq and liberals[/b]
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[b]Iraq and liberals[/b]
Posted in 
[b]Iraq and liberals[/b]
Hello I'm Rainin Kia some of you know me and some don't I don't care just hear me out no offense to liberal  people, but here I go...

Today Mar. 7, 2003 
We as a country are going to war in Iraq and we have givin the Iraqi's ten days to disarm. They as cowards will probably plan an attack before their 10 days are up and we as a nation will be left with a great mark of desperation and here are the liberals trying to tell us to bury our heads in the sand and hope we live. They say, "No we can't attack Iraq we will kill innocent people!" I say look at them their getting ready to backstab us again and we are going to sit back and watch. And Bush doesn't want to stand for that ,but because all the protestors we have had trouble getting this ready (to goto war and all) and here are a bunch of whiny democrats and liberals (no offence) who want to take away the pledge of alligence because it has the word god in it well i say "BULL!" if we were to say it in our children's schools and everywhere else now is the time, while our soldiers risk their live to save us. And I have no regret of saying this, but all the people I offend you shouldn't have read this and I'm sorry, but GOD BLESS AMERICA!

(keep this post going and talk together and ge this subject going through FOD!) And sorry to all the people I may have offended

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God"-J. Christ,0000-0033
(since you brought God into it)

No offense intended to either conservatives or neoconservatives,but: 
Bin Laden brings God into it too.....

God most likely isn't American

If you think this war is to protect you and yours....
...God help ya

During Nam, our cheerleader in chief(yep, he was a cheerleader in college)was AWOL from the Texas Air National Guard for like a YEAR...how much did ya hear from the "liberal" press about that one???No one in the "lib press" dares to bring it up at press conferences either.

THe original text of the pledge of alligiance, written in 1892 by a staff member of The Boston Magazine is as follows:
   "I pledge alligiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands-one nation

indivisible- with justice for all."  (my kid posted the message while I was away....DERN KIDS....anyway the "God trip" was added during the 50s cold war anticommunist paranoic fever  (McCarthy was from WI.....bummer...but,so was "Fightin Bob" LaFollette)

I guess since GW and the neoconservatives like Richard Perle and Paul Wolfowitz want others to fight a war for them....along with the ever lovable William Krystol (you can see him Sunday on Fox "news"...more liberal press for ya there) (choke gag)then the rest of the world is supposed to ok it.   BULL

After we pounded Afganistan (who could love the taliban???) Bush said we were liberating them and we would assure that all the lil children would get education etc,,,,,,,THEN he omitted ANY funds for rebuilding the place...quick quiz...how many Afgans were on the planes on 9/11????   how many Iraqis????.....Im not providin the answer, but try somewhere below 1

"those derned libs" made a ruckus and Bush added some $$$ to help rebuild the place...

no offense to conservatives but Rush Limbaugh is the last place to go for any balanced reporting about anything.....he also skipped out of Nam...had a boil on his bottom (poor dear)  also did ya know that Rush didnt vote fer Ronnie Raygun???  its not that he voted against him, he just NEVER voted until an investigative journalist  (dern liberal troublemakers) busted the big  phoney....he was on the air spoutin all that conservative Corporate ******(saved FOD the trouble) and he got caught.....the dittos just kept dittoing anyway.

 To all those for war I say what I did the last Iraq go'round..."support the troops,ENLIST"

Finally, watch how much support our veterans get AFTER they are done servin the Industrial/Military complex...
and you thought the moderators here were bad.....try the VA.   the end.....  Court Jester
Obviously you dont like liberals any more than i do but what do you mean how many Iraqis were on the plane i dont give a damn. They willtry something and Bush knows it. Are you behind him or not ratethis?? and even so Rush may not have voted for Ronald Regan, but what does that really matter? He still believs in Republican ways right? The questions are for you ratethis are...
1.Are you behind Bush    Yes    No
2.Are you republican?    Yes    No
3.Do you care about the pledge of Alliegence?     Yes  No
Rain......I LOVE libs......I did vote for Reagan first time around (young and uninformed) and will NEVER vote GOP (greedy oil pigs) again.....I want my kids to have a shot at a job outside the sweatshops......want the government the h*** outta their bedrooms..... want them to have a decent environment with fewer endangered species (because we saved em, not because we kilt em all off)....... I dig owls,whales,trout,groundsquirrels,flowers ,ferns, and old growth forests........what I cant stand (hate actually) is Rush, Reagan, and the Religious Right who would trade all Gods critters in for another fat fist of cash..... 

American history is full of unsung libs who fought and bled in this country to give the workingman more than the few scraps the Robber Barons were feeding them.  Child labor laws were OPPOSED by the corporatists of those days....the Corporatists of these days just export the jobs to where child labor is legal. Read up on republican whip Tom Delay and his ties to sweatshops....

It was the libs in the Democratic party that broke the shameful ties with the southern racists like Strom Thurmond (who formed the Dixiecrats and ran against Harry Truman)these ties were picked up succesfully by the GOP using Nixon's "southern strategy"...to great success....the old "bible belt"  (we call it the "Lynching belt" here in WI)is now firmly in the GOP camp..............good riddance, southern man.....

the modern Goldwater/Reagan/Enron GOP bears little resemblence to its Glorious past.....Lincoln was hardly a "states righter" cant get much bigger government than making a COUNTRY out of a collection of states...and Teddy Roosevelt was the greatest wacko environmentalist president this country ever had and ever will....both of those guys are on Mount Rushmore  (Sioux Indian land---no one asked them) now Reagan's supporters want his mug up there...the joke about that is that Ronnie wanted to sell off our National Parks to the highest bidder...

the worst point of the REagan administration (aside from supporting the Contras and the death squads in El Salvador) was when The Reagan administration wanted to classify ketchup as a  school lunch vegetable (tomatoes are fruit, they have seeds in em)to help pay for his military buildup...(Family values my rear).....GW is now defunding similar programs to pay for his military buildup and tax breaks to the fatcat corporate contributors...."so it goes"*  

no offense to any conservatives tho....
* Kurt Vonnegut- Slaughterhouse Five
sorry rain...got so swept up in my diatribe,I forgot your 3 yes or no ?s...
  * I care more for independent thought than mindless pledges.....its kinda like a repetitive prayer...loses its meaning
by the way on school prayer...lets see what Jesus said....(That dern liberal):
Matthew6:versus 5-6
 5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 

6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. 

Mon Dieu!!! rate. too angry.go canoeing.

Well if your not behind Bush then me and you are very different rate and i agree independant partys are not that bad either, but I see that you have alot of problems with former presidents and your right they did have problems back then, it was because of the depression rate and that is why Ronald Regan was selling parks to get thye US some money! 

And here is some thing that I have just found out. 
The smith and wesson just put out a new magnum and the liberals and democrats are complaining that it will cause (to their statistics) a 5% killing increase in the US and I say BULL once again my favourite saying "guns dont kill people, people kill people" and thats how it is, the gun doesn't pull the trigger. And one of the liberals stood up in a meeting and said "I wouldn't want to live next door to a person who had thast gun" what the he dbl hcky stks. Like the guy just gonna burst out of his house and start capping people. NoT! And I believe god said himself, though i do not know the verse he said "Pray without obligation not because you feel you have too."

Talk to me rate,
 What the h*** is up with that s***???
The Second Ammendment
The Right To Bear Arms
Our Own Homeland Security

Which the liberal and democrats are trying to take away, and if they do I think I'll move to a different coutry.
True Rainin, you and I are as different as ice and road salt, but look at the nice pile of slush we've created together..........

As for Reagan and the public lands,,,,,you have it backwards.....Reagan created the debt to necessitate the sale of these lands......the huge taxcuts and the increase in military spending were designed to defund the federal government, making EPA enforcement of air and water protections, civil rights protections,federal school aid etc. as potent as a coal miner's widow.

He campaigned against all this stuff, and what he couldn't accomplish from within, (remember James Watt?) (probably not)he tried to accomplish by bankrupting the federal government. READ up on the "Sagebrush rebellion" which Ronnie endorced and embraced in its entirety.

That "rebellion" was basically a bunch of corporations and wealthy ranchers (Gail Norton, current Secretary of Interior is one of these corporatists)that wanted the federal government to disposses itself of all federal lands in the west and Alaska.  

They had no problems with federal ownership (no taxes)until the environmental movement in the 70s (dern libs)shined a bright light on the wretched abuse of those lands which belong to ALL the people....our current Cheerleader...I mean President...is back at it...bankrupt the government, drive the wealth to the top (geyser up economics)....and set the corporate machine loose on the public lands....

Dont take rates word for it, just stay informed......

As for the gun issue....that and abortion are the 2 issues, that (if you agree with the GOP)you can't look to the liberals for.-----If the issue is human rights, the environment, the excessive corporate ownership of everything,clean elections,supporting democracy in other countries,child immunization,fair labor laws,endangered species,supporting the UN, etc. etc.----there is NO (NONE, NOT ONE) place for you in today's GOP.

Homeland Security----were you asleep during this one Rainin????....the dems offered the bill up ("sleepy" Lieberman was the original author) and GW didnt want to make another cabinet position......then pressure mounted and he claimed it as his idea.....then, the stroke of genius!!!,the administration decided to add union busting to the bill, which they knew the dems wouldn't agree with.

It worked, the dems wouldn't pass it (actually Daschle tried to bring it to vote about 7 times....the GOP fillibustered each time....where was the "liberal" press on THAT? Therefore, the very instrument that the democrats promoted to provide security for our country became the club used to beat them during the last election..........gotta love politics.....

Rain, do me a favor.....although I always love debating conservatives, please do a bit of background reading before you post.......I got a lot on my plate with work, school,family,canoeing,etc.   this takes away from my gametime. (jus kiddn rain, no offense to any conservatives) 
in case you wondered , FOD put the ******** where I wrote ab*or*tion-----you censors REALLY gotta lighten UP
Hey your right background reading would be good, but the thing is The Second Amendment is being threatened here. And that gets me mad so what am i supposed to do when someone breaks into my house with a knife? How will I protect my family and my self to waste my time on work family and canoeing. You tell me what I'd do then huh?!?!?!

So anything else you'd like to debate about?

Tell me.

Rainin Kia
Kopaka Nuva
Not to butt in here, but the Molly Ivins-like rant has me intrigued.  As for the '80s, didn't the D-controlled congress spent money on social programs (most of which failed to produce any long term effects other than teaching a generation of children to not have any ambition)just as fast and furious as money was spent on defense?  I was in the service at the time, experienced the mess that Carter made of our military, and had the pleasure of seeing Ronnie build it back up to the organization that ended the cold war.  Ok, ok, so we flat out outspent them, but the results are there for you to see.  Deja vu all over again (sorry Yogi) in the '90s, when we saw an unprecedented level of military commitments by Bill, and inversely proportional cuts in defense spending.  "You want spare parts, you shoulda thought about that before ya broke it, troop."  Look, there will never be a meeting of the minds where ideology is concerned, and you can find good and bad on both sides.  I do get concerned when some on the left automatically demonize wealth and prosperity---I mean, someone elses wealth never affected my ability to earn my own wealth, nor did taxing the bejesus out of us ever do anything for poor.  
where the rubber meets the road, money rules.  One side says if you can aquire it, you should get to keep it.  The other says if you can't aquire it, we'll take it away from those who have it, give you a taste, and remember where it came from next time you're in the polling booth.  By the way, we'll help register you, give you a ride, AND buy you a meal on the way there!  Who says there is no such thing as a free lunch.
I like the thoughts about keeping the right out of the bedroom........great, and while you're at it, keep the left out of my gun rack, checkbook, and off of my property.  Remember the big land grab in Utah, as long as we're mentioning conservation.  Big difference between conservationism (stewardship) and todays environmentalists (flora and fauna over humans at any costs).  
One last question:  If a apecies is in trouble, isn't that what Darwin is all about?  Adaptation to the environment when it changes, regardless if the change is caused by nature of man?

Sorry about the length of this, but it feels good to vent.
Kudos tankenstein....vent at will man!!....like to read a good vent or two myself, particularly the articulate variety....

I almost blushed when you compared my barely coherent ramblings to those of the good Ms Molly. She must rub off; she is one of my favorite columnists (being a voice of reason and humanity from the execution capital of the US----Europe got rid of slavery before us too)

As for the eighties(The Reagan years)ol Ronnie never saw a budget he didnt love....he raised taxes too btw. Military spending was priority numero uno....as you well know, Medicare and other elderly entitlements, are the biggest social expendeture, and corporate welfare was then and still is a larger drain on your tax dollars than the welfare Queen Ron made such a fuss about.  The Corporate Queens are still on the dole...at higher rates....call it "return on investment", in BOTH parties.

Then there's ol Jimmy (still is, eh?). Tankenstein, Ive become convinced that one light shines down, but that we all have our little prisms; yours deflects to the right, mine to the left. Where you see a hapless Carter, fiddling as the embers of Empire began to smolder, with Ronnie coming to the rescue,(singlehandedly?)crushing the evil empire,I see Carter as a visionary who carried himself as "everyman"(the luggage "incident"),who tried to reform the wretched CIA,tried to make human rights more than just an American hypocrisy, and wore a sweater to show some SMALL sense of sacrifice, as he pleaded with a nation of wanton consumption to rethink its ways lest they have to send their children to kill and die in the gulf over oil. Carter then launched an alternative energy research program. He called energy conservation "the moral equivalent of war."  America didn't listen.

 Recession, a hostage crisis, and an oil embargo and adios Jimmy.----Hello Ronnie,and welcome back hostages!! and trading with terrorists and supporting illegal wars(Iran-Contra)and Sadaam and all the depressing regimes in Central America, and "we shall not be moved" and then all those dead marines (he was warned)and Ronnie kissing the Marines Mom's tears and America felt bad for Ron. Carter lost a handful of heroes to a desert sandstorm and America held him accountable.One of Ronnie's first acts as president was to have the state of the art and unobtrusive solar system (commissioned by Jimmy)removed from the Whitehouse. When the designer inquired about Ronnie's dissatisfaction (any problems?) Ron told him "we are done with that foolishness." During the Reagan years, the US Marine Corps marching band recieved more $$$ than all alternative energy research combined.

So, here we are , embarking on our second oil war...free will finds us in our SUVs, flags a flappin' as the neighbors' kid gets ready to fight in some Iraqi neighborhood. Al Franken said Rumsfeld was a genius to turn around Clinton's incapable military into a world class force in 6 months....lol in extremis...love ol Franken.

As for $$$$, (no rich men in heaven I hear, unless some seriously HUGE needles there......do camels go to heaven??)let the rich keep as much of their lucre as they want, just dont let them buy our democracy....oops too late on that one....by the way , nice to see them sacrifice during this time in our nation's need....I say let's do better than another taxbreak...let's have a telethon for the neediest wealthy Americans......oh, we do...it's called the National Elections....The rich get driven to the show...are given a taste of our nations prosperity, then our natural resources are handed over to them so they can remember next time they enter the bidding booth.....

Ive long winded as usual, (you find me entertaining though, dontcha, Tankster...ya read this far....) As for the conservation issue....
#1...no Utah "land grab"...it's federal land...never was Utah's...Utah entered statehood that way  (GOD BLESS YOU TEDDY ROOSEVELT and sorry we didnt keep your flame alive)
The real grab is when corporations strip those lands of value  (ever heard of heap leach mining???) and leave us to clean up the land, the streams (so many gone now) and the aquifer....if THAT'S what you prefer, you're in luck...the GOP runs our country now.
#2...nature vs man.....what's worth saving??....what do the great grandkids inherit, besides the refuse and problems of this generation??...not the prairies...  or the grassland birds ...or the passenger pigeons that used to obscure the Wisconsin sun for days (yes,true) during their migration...seems the salmon are on their way out...along with the deep forest birds.....the red spruce of appalachia,the eastern hemlocks,the southern dogwoods.... the list is long and growing fast.....Darwin, by the way, was about TIME....vast, slow change, leading to a diversity of life forms exploiting the slowly evolving landscape....you are speaking of the Anti-Darwin....a diminishment of diversity of epic proportion caused by the worship of one's immediate wants over the needs of one's progeny....Darwin would call that a foolish species,indeed.

No need to apologize Tankenstein, at least yer thinkin..anyone that reads Molly aint all bad....I leave you with two quotes from  conservation icon, father of Game Management,Forester/Wilderness Preservation pioneer, Professer Emeritus UW WI,Aldo Leopold (A Sand County Almanac is worth the read...youll agree with him more than you might first want to).......

"We abuse land, because we regard it as a commodity belonging to us. When we see land as a community to which we belong,we may begin to use it with love and respect."

"The first rule of intelligent tinkering is to save all the parts."
Just a little fact here Mr. Darwin at the end of his misserable, but surprising life, became a Christian. 

"Oh my gosh no way!"
"Are you serious?"
"Holy crap!"

Yes the evolvolutionist him self became a Christian.

And the gun cabinet thing Tank is a good point, but arguing with this guy can tare your mind apart so i WOULDN'T DO IT. 
I did and my brain still hurts, but I'd like to get back to the second issue of my post Iraq any bidders???
Rainin...sorry bout the brainin'; didnt mean to tear into your brain, but I would leave your cabinet alone....I'm with ya on that one, bud.
Regarding Darwin, he was a brilliant naturalist and observer, who merely raised many questions regarding the diversity of life.  His theories have been widely misunderstood,and even shaped into a sort of secular religion, while many religious folks decry his observations without providing credible alternatives.

The belief that all life forms existing today were created alongside T Rex and the giant trilobites,and that the great flood of genesis wiped out the so-called earlier forms, leaving us with the bunnies and the terriers(and leaving Mr Rex as Lord of the Sediments)has one major flaw:>>>>>>>>>>>No bunnies or terriers or oak trees or mangos (mmmmmm mangos,drool , time to go grocery shopping) are found stuck in the mud with Mr Rex and his associates. Instead,one finds giant tree ferns and monstrous dragonflies...obviously,Mr T inhabited a world quite unlike the one we are now tearing apart faster than your beleagered braincells (have a stiff drink bud,it'l sooth the burn).

The claim that Darwin converted was made by a certain Lady Hope (didnt make that up,promise)who was a British Noblewoman and ardent evangelist. That claim is widely disputed. A funny thing about the faith is that it calls on believers to surrender their wills and their minds to the creator(or the version of the creator the leader of their group is espousing.) I don't see Darwin biting at that bait, but he was old and sick; perhaps it was dimentia.  Perhaps Darwin did have a deathbed conversion,regardless, he was one of the great minds of the 2oth century. 

Your second issue is..........guns???Fine, keep em, enjoy em etc....but 1 question... (remember conservatives love the "original intent" of the founders....the real conservatives like Trent Lott even like the original intent supporting slavery, but THATS a whole other can o' worms)

The question: Arms....where is the line on this??? A slingshot is an armament of sorts , but so is an Abrams tank (weeeeeee)or a thermonuclear "device".  Here in WI, the rednecks got in an uproar over Indian spearfishing...the treaties gave them the right and the courts upheld that right.....anyways, when the rednecks weren't throwing stones (literally)or calling the Indains "timbern*ggers" (nice friendly bunch, yer average rednecks)they proposed making the Indians use the original equipment from the ol'days when the treaty was signed. The irony to all this furor (it was HUGE up north for awhile)was that fish were contaminated with mercury....guess who did THAT.....hint....THE REDNECKS.

The point to that brain ripping diatribe??? The rednecks were on to something..... Let's use original intent on the 2nd amendment....all the muzzleloaders ya want, boys......(keep yer powder dry)
Excellent!  You are right, Rate, I DO find you entertaining.  Willing to accept that both the left and the right barrels contain rotten apples, and personal choice as to which you prefer.  There are two dilemmas that interest me concerning the environment (oops, I mean conservation), and alternate energy.
1.  Here in the Midwest, there is lots of interest in setting up wind turbines.  One of the proposed sites is in the Flint Hills in Kansas (close to home).  The problem now with the environmentalists is that they are (in their opinion) too big, too ugly, too noisy (evidently prairie chickens don't care for them), and will spoil the pristine beauty of this region, which you can enjoy from your car travelling along I-70 (thinly veiled sarcasm).  The fact is that ANY type of energy source, be it traditional or alternative, is likely to be intrusive in some manner to some group.  Where is the line?  "ok, ok, no windmills, but here's some pollution from the new power plant"?
2.  In the news this week was a story about the Presideo in San Fran, and a proposal to return part of these lands back to their original sand dune glory.  Reason for this is the endangered status of a small flower that only thrives in wind-swept dunes.  In order to accomplish this transformation, HUNDREDS of lovely trees will have to be removed, some as much as 120 years old (new old growth?).  A battle royale now rages between the self-described "sand-huggers" and the well known tree-huggers.  While I obviously relish this conflict, it does seem to indicate that, in at least some respects, environmentalists who claim to hold all nature sacred are really just special interest groups themselves?
3.  This just in--the chickens being used as "chemical detectors" in kuwait by our military? 

Always fun to trade ideas with those who are diametrically opposed, but not rabid.  Till next time,  "Fire BAAADDDDDD"        
"Friend goooooooooood"
thanks Tankster, and back at ya...to explore the two dilemmas....

#1. The first place to look for energy is in efficiency...appliances weatherproofing etc.  The obvious problem is start-up cost (inefficient is cheaper short-term). As far as new sources go, I'd opt for Wind, even though I love the flint hills (I've spent some time roaming around the back areas and in the Konza prairie; that region is a national treasure).Ya gotta pick your poison, and wind beats nukes or mountaintop removal for coal. The Nature Conservancy holds some fine tracts in the hills, and the Feds have a national park underway there. Setting aside some vast tracts for NO development should be the goal, with intensive wind development in some areas.(???) Wind does wreak havoc with raptors and migrating birds, but how we gonna play tanx without electricity, eh?  Now to practice some class warfare: Just as the poorest communities and the Indian reservations are the nation's toxic waste pits, rest assured that  NO development will take place near the hives of the mega rich, be they environmentalists or strict corporate opportunists((((AAAHHHHHH---all better now)))).

Ive noticed a little trick often practiced by conservatives (and libs). Find the most extreme example of the ideology one opposes (PETA for the "environmentalists", the Michigan or Idaho Militiamen for "2nd ammendmentists") and grab the biggest, fattest paintbrush available. I do it all the time with corporatists,while knowing that the Paul Newmans and Ben and Jerrys are out there.......A speaker on public radio said something I found profound......that we hold other's "realities" up against our "ideals"...darn true.

#2. This one's easy...save the native, the indigenous, wherever possible......where I live, over 95% of the plants are non-native...lots of European weeds...me included. I refer you again to Aldo Leopolds admonition to "save all the parts"...this is best accomplished by sving the habitats. I'm utterly biased on this one, since that is my joy , my principal recreation....the wife and I have a small prairie restoration and my friends and I work on  land projects (local and Nature Conservancy} trying to save the last scraps of a landscape once called "the finest region in North America" (the oak savannah was sublime...a virtual eden). This isn't sacrifice or seflessness on my part, its pure self interest....I dig nature. So I'm with the sandworms on the Presidio. Is "relishing the conflict" an admition that you prefer pavement to prairie, or does my brush need to be tapered??

 I know many right -wingers who seem to abhor setting aside land for its sake......there's a legal battle in my town over that.....condos vs endangered species (public land, owned by the town)....there is NO reaching them....they can only be outshouted and outvoted.Turn-out for the plants was overwhelming, but the board sees it as tree-hugging, plant-petting, commie pinko foolishness. Some friends of mine spent a large portion of their retirement fund ( bless their hearts)  obtaining counsel, and enjoining against the town's "jackboot of progress". The case rests with the WI State Supreme Court.  

Parting thought....The post Christian European Origin Tradition  (is there an easier way to put that?) starts with humans in Paradise, only to be cast into this world of thorns and woe.  The origin tradition of all the Indian Nations(Sioux, Fox, Sauk, Arapaho, etc.) starts with humans in a cold dark place(under a large stone or beneath the roots of a giant tree}. They are lead by Coyote or by Crow INTO Paradise......Perhaps that is why an Ojibwa, needing a tree for a canoe, would first honor the spirit of the tree with a gift of tobacco and would praise and thank the tree as he felled it.The tree, to him, was a precious piece of Paradise, the wood, a gift from the tree that he could use........ but he was just a savage........we are consumers.  
I guess i should put my part in to **** some one off. 
Well the tree huggers used to be a big problem of mine but now frankly i dont care(Mmmmm... Ball Park Franks) As rate said time to shop. i dont care about tree huggers anymore because they try nad try and try and try to make a difference but only 20% of the time they succeed. (HaHaHa) Efforts in vein right? Wrong! The press no longer covers bills sent to The House or Senate about preserveing National Parks, and sometimes yes they are worth saving, but if they are gonna go through tell me about it ok? The reason I said wrong was because they try so hard and when they succeed, its off to save some more trees!!!!! :) Yahhhhhhh... Whoo hoo says the House and Senate who have to listen and aggree with everything that comes out of their mouth or they are accussed off not caring about the trees. So they send the bill through thats why the tree huggers no longer get public attention.

And how would they make my wood stock on the barrel off my ol' .45???????

All I know right now is that we have no choice but to carry weapons in our houses and if they are takin away there will be a push of crime rate to go up behind the weapons issue. So good luck commies!!!
hey Tankenstein (not tankster...sorry...got the Mary Shelly reference, but botched yer name....1 hour sleep...)

Rainin....are ball park franks really made outta dead treehuggers???....always wondered about those things....

Most of the treehuggers are just trying to save the ancient ones....Wisconsin is full of tree farms, providing ample wood for 2x4s and gun stocks....happy huntin' Rainin.....(the wife hunts deer and turkey...a good shot too.....I try to stay on her good side..

Dont worry about bills protecting land ...the GOP is busy with bills undoing all the hard won protections....I remember when Lake Eerie was dead, and the Cuyahoga river was regularly aflame...that's quite the feat , burning rivers.........well, it's back to the bad ol days for the USA. Pop a cork guys, and celebrate....your side is winning bigtime.......................... 

Rate, your brush IS too broad.  No , I don't prefer pavement (although I did chuckle when I heard about a guy who paved his lawn, covered it with astroturf, and installed a statue of a lawnmower with a sword through it), I just enjoy irony.  That Trent Lott remark was a little low, however.  Would of been better all around if he just admitted he was trying to make the silly old bas***d feel beter before he keels over, and spends the rest of eternity who knows where.  Very tempted to fire back a reference about Sen. Byrd, but I know that being a former clansman and playing the part of a confederate general doesn't make him a racist--heck, I'd dress up like Pearl Bailey if it got me on the big screen (not that I'm a crossdresser, just....well....forget it).  By the way, have you seen the Eddie Izzard special on HBO?  I know it's a few years old, but hilariously on the mark re world ploitics, and history revisited (England conquering the world through the cunning use of flags).  Anyway, new topic--Global warming or global cooling?  I personally think the Kyoto accord is again another attempt at wealth redistribution, and I know the population -v- resource usage argument.  My problem is this:  If the true aim is to clean up the environment, how do you justify letting undeveloped nations sell their pollution allotment to industrialzed nations?  Won't that just perpetuate a short term solution (buy your way out of a jam) -v- forcing industries to really lower pollution levels by modernizing?  I used to be in the corporate world, they all LOVE easy, term fixes.  Til next time, have a good one.  
By the way, are you a Pack fan?
Tankenstein......never caught the Izzard special...no HBO here....I'll catch it @ the vid store if it pops up....you're on target about irony.....it kicks sarcasm's backside.......I'm convinced ol Trent was expressing his true views...he said it before.....he WOULD have dressed like Pearl to save his post....the GOP got out the long knives before he could refashion himself as the next Lincoln....his remarks about regretting his past votes and taking on a more "melanin enhanced" perspective had me hootin and guffawin....I knew his buddies would depose him at that point.......now he's just melancholy.....as for Byrd...he's reformed??....compare his and Trent's voting records.  

I have no problem owning up to the fact that liberalism is home to PETA (way wacko) and all kinds of loonies and cause celebs ....why are conservatives in such denial about the strong white supremist faction??....Nixon's  southern strategy is an historical fact, and it has given them the south AND the Rocky Mountain states....

I recall that Reagan launched the "state's rights" aspect of his presidential campaign (no decoder ring needed for that one) in Philidelphia, Mississippi,made internationally infamous by the murder of three civil rights workers(Schwerner, Goodman, and Cheney).   Here's a link from the History Channel for any interested silent participants. (I know you are hip to this,Tankenstein).


   lol... that darn redneck just popped up to help me reduce my debt......FODs demographics must really stink.....oh thats right, it's mostly Americans (wink to Ghost)

Global warming: I dont have a clue on this one....I'm really into land conservation....but I'll take the scientists word for it......I think conservatives are paranoid with the talk of plots n all.......the scientists I'm sceptical of work for Detroit or Big Oil and issue reports disclaiming the scientific consensus......Regardless, energy efficiency is just intelligent.....I agree that the credits thing is a joke....what do you expect when the foxes are making the rules to safeguard the henhouse...REAL reform??.....yer smarter than that....

My first and last letter to a federal office holder was related to this..(actually about the Arctic Refuge). I wrote to then Senator Kasten (R-WI), recommending preservation, not to save the caribou or the landscape, (wasted appeals to a benighted,myopic Republican) but because the future belongs to the society that embraces efficiency....the economy of THAT society would leave the antiquated oil economies far behind.....I repeated that this was not a caribou issue and thanked him for his service to our state..............A few weeks later {you guessed it) I recieved a form letter assuring me that Sen. Kasten would ensure that any oil production wouldn't hurt the caribou.....!!!!......lol.....

Be well ,T... you too, Rainin.......sorry we keep drifting off your topic..... Oh yeah I guess I'm a pac fan....not rabid, ya know....
back to the war.........2 things for ya to read (if interested).......call it "Iraq and conservatives"

#1: This link to an editorial in the Japan Times by Gregory Clark(former Australian diplomat. He asserts that the drive for war is less about obtaining resources, than it is about expending them (bombs, new gee whiz weapons,etc) in order to keep the Industrial military complex fat n' happy.


#2: Couple the above with President Eisenhowers famous 1961 Presidential farewell speech(commonly known as the industrial military complex speech, it also warned against "Corporate Science"...(biotech??) and made a strong plea FOR resource conservation.


Enlightenment is painful, but the gain could make it worthwhile..."wink"......Rainin, the question that bedevils me, that causes endless perplexity in my liberal neural pathways is: WHY has the conservative party abandoned these noble concepts...along with those of Lincoln and T.Roosevelt???GREED is the easy answer, but again there's that wide old paintbrush....is there really a more nuanced explanation for sacrificing the grandkids on the altar of "self-interest?"  To me thats no overstatement...I am a bit rabid on this.....haven't had my shots.It's those old family values at play...the Blackfeet Indians said to look 7 generations back and 7 ahead when making decisions....our society looks to the next Quarterly Report......utter myopia. 
Again, I'll give you your points on guns and feti (fetuses if ya prefer).....why are conservatives in denial about race and selfishness?????

Hey I'm back those ball park franks were good 2 packs for 99cents good deal. (are they made of tree huggers?) (maybe that why they so good?) anyway i agree we have overstocked on bombs for the last seven years because Y2K at first and then fear of war.

uh well when the red ranger.... I MEAN Reagan came into office was he trying to buy bombs? (sorry watching my sons Power Rangers (so scary these days)) Note to self:PINK RANGER VERY HOT! Note to better self:Dont let wife see this!

Any ways i belive Bush and Colin Powell giving an Iraqi deadline was the best decision because that kind of put protestors out of the picture because Bush and Powell are trying to keep peace, but if forced we will fight!

(Hey Tankinstein what do you think of the ab*rtion thing?)
(I hear ya on guns)
(And rate where do you get all your non stopping info?)
pink one is hot eh??? pinky and Izzard on my list...

I don't buy that Bush is tryin to make peace....au contraire...I believe the President made his mind up for war long ago, (I always laugh when Colin or Condi claim he hasn't decided yet)it's just that the rest of the world aint seein it his way.....he was full steam ahead until the polls said the US public wanted UN approval..........he's a politician all the way........just search back and follow the story from the beginning...

France has been giving him fits....France says if they are "bad people" for their veto, then the US must be real bad, since the US has used its veto power way more...once was to veto reunification of Vietnam...then we got deep into that mess.......

Bush is a blowhard that has repeatedly backed down from his rhetoric....remember the latest???........he was gonna call for a vote and MAKE all those countries "show their cards"  .....hahahahahahaha.....he called it off when he realized (again) that he's the joker....time to give him the royal flush.....again, a wiser Republican(good ol TR) said "speak softly and carry a big stick"...if GW Inc weren't such a bunch of blowhards, we wouldnt be in this predicament...also, South Koreans would be sleeping easier......notice how the cheerleader NEVER uses "axis of evil?" anymore......oops guess if you call em part of an axis(N korea) and show that you will wage an agressive war on one part,they just might get a bit testy........I guess they should behave themselves, wait for the UN to disarm Iraq,the US to kick Iraq's hindey...then step up for their spanking.....I guess they said "guess NOT"  moral?????? see TR (above)  

nonstopping info....made me laugh....perhaps blowhard would be a better term....I can take it......"to thine own self..."....ya know.......

oh yeah, Rain..... ever try those dogs on toasted potato buns???mmmmmmmmmmmm Take em to a PETA rally.....
No never tried those buns and toasted he** i dont even know what you are talking about.

As for Bush on the record of having been ready to go to war since Sept. 11 of 2001 well yeah he seems hot headed. I have one question were are you located ratethis? IN the US of course.

Add Sarah Michelle Geller to the list okay, but some thing you should know is shes another one of these 100% liberals ( no offense) and "Ohhhhhhhh I protest the war, what about the innocent children and familys? You cant attack them theve done nothing!"
The thing is Saddam Husein sets up troops in the citys like Baghdad and expects us to walk through their with out weapons out because we might attack citizens.
Truth is those towel heads are right behind the doors of those innocent peoples houses. 
Oh and Saddam whats this worried about your citizens when you use tested chemical gas on them? You **** hypocrit!
(But miss Geller is pretty hot and single too) post more in a minute dont respond yet k rate thanks Rainin Kia

Ok im back and to continue Sarah Geller is hot oh wait i said that huh. Any way i cant wait to see the terrorists hit Hollywood That would change the veiw of those liberal actors.

And another food I like my sons Lunchables!

(Rainin Kia
Kopaka Nuva

... ok you can post now

juat ask at the store for potato rolls........at least they are here in Wisconsin.......SMG is very sweet....put here in a bun.........mmmmmmmmmmmmm......goin hikin now...in the 60s here......be well

Well is the topic dead or not will we keep going?
methinks its as toasted as a tasty potato roll...but I had fun........
OK, last shot........Rate, the "reduce your debt" redneck just got me!.........Rainen, on the abor**ion thng, I have a compound question.  1. We spare no expense to save premies, but if the mother decides to end a life, we are supposed to beleive this is just her decision?  And if the argument that "who will care for all of the unwanted babies, and who will pay for it" is inverted, then we are saying that choice is also helpful from a fiscal standpoint.  Ok, then smokers who die early from their sinful habit also end up costing less, as they die earlier, so why don't 'they' leave me and my Luckies alone!  Convoluted, but do you get it?  I think the whole issue is moot, choice is now a sacred cow that can't be touched, but why the heck can't they learn to wrap that rascal?  Hasn't that number performed per year been declining, by the way?  Not sure.  
Rate as for the MIC, on target.  Necessary evil, to some extent. Check out Bell Textron and the OH-58 chopper in Vietnam, which the army started buying instead of the OH-6 (Hughes).  Know who owned a big chunk of stock?  LADYBIRD!  So, as we have said before, the rotten apples are in both barrels, and only through the vigilence of those on both sides will there be any hope.  
Much different topic, maybe a new discussion could be started, but I just love conspiracies.  Lets start with this one---The aircraft carrying Ron Brown was deliberatly 'meaconed' into a hillside in order to stop him from spilling the beans about shady going ons in you-know-whos administration.  
Meaconing, if you don't know, is the creation of a false navigation signal for the purpose of disrupting an enemy aircrafts navigation -- think the Brits first used it in WWII to prevent bombers from finding their targets.  Later, and.........fire BAAADDDDD!!!(but SMG so, so GOOOOD).    Tank
Well it is time Rate (nod) Tank (nod) I'm ending this post weve talked about alot of things and its time to stop this thing food hot chicks and of course politics and treehuggers.

Well will miss ya play me tanx some time EH?

Your debater Rainin Kia
on ab#rtion.....don't the feti go straight to the gate??
(pearly)...no chance to be bad little pieces of clay...therefore the kingdom "up yonder" is a bit plumper...kinda like ballpark franks.......beats proselityzing.................imagine Heaven, holding a conversation with a fetus...

On Ron......(Enron)...ok, fine.......but the signal wasn't altered in NY....Bush's Saudi assault team hit right on the mark....bullseye...........WACKO CONSPIRACY??????......hehe....just imagine if ol Slick was still in office......all the little Bushy boys and Rushyrats would be shouting this from the rooftops..just like they did about Oklahoma City.......ps (the war has nothing to do with oil....LOL)...watch Cheney's old company make $$$$$$$$$$ rebuilding Iraq (it's yer dime)

well this is it for rate's rants...getting rid of cable internet today...too darn expensive...goin back to nature for a bit...been fun,say Hi to spoiler for me, tell him to hike dem good ol National Forests before GW sells em all......be well..............PAIX