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`Position Analysis Thread`
`Posted in `
`Four in a Row`
`Position Analysis Thread`
`Posted in `
`Four in a Row`
`Position Analysis Thread`
```A thread for people to post a position they find difficult to dissect, and ask for others' thought processes.

I'll start this off by responding to English Legend's recent query from another thread.

(Blue to move)

```
`My analysis`
```

The most promising move that jumps out to me for Blue is 5. It's a draw. Red will respond by going on top (otherwise Blue wins). If Blue then makes an even diagonal threat by taking 6, Red takes 2 and Red's diagonal will eventually undercut Blue's. In the zugzwang position (which I guess we can refer to as the "endgame") there will be just one "odd column" (Column 5). This means Red will get the E5 square, thus making an immediate C3 threat forcing Blue to block and allowing Red to block on C4.

(Note -- by "odd column" in the endgame, I mean a column with an odd number of squares. If I say it in the context of mid-game, I mean a column that will be odd in the endgame.)

Besides 5, Blue can go for the more obvious draw by going 2. Doing this blocks Red's potential odd diagonal threat. From that point there is no offense for either player unless one player were to just hand victory to the other.

All moves lead to a draw but 5 is Blue's best move because it makes Red have to do a small amount of work to maintain the draw, whereas the other moves save Red from any work whatsoever.

Anyway I hope this thread turns out to be a success! (Ofc it will cuz you know everything I touch turns to gold!)```
`2727716533, In this position, why is 3 a winning move for Red but not 2? I wanna hear your thoughts... I have my own thought I won't post yet. ^^`
```Nice supra.

Those are hard. 2 will not get reds even in 4, because blue can play 3 and force red to go 2, after: 27277165332235655

But even harder for me was finding the win with correct play. I did not find correct move after this: 27277165333565536653.

```
```Bonjour, pour le 414524444. Après on peut jouer 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 = draw. Les meilleure solution serait de jouer soit en 1 ou 5 après.

Pour suprafix. Car si on joue comme ça :
red 2     blue 2
red 3     blue 5
red 6     blue 5
red 5     blue 3
red 3     blue 2... = draw

Mais si red joue en colonne 3 :

red 3     blue 5
red 6     blue 5
red 5     blue 3
red 5     blue 3
red 2     blue 2
red 2     ....       = red win

Ou :

red 3     blue 5
red 6     blue 5
red 5     blue 2
red 3     blue 5
red 4     blue 4
red 4     blue 4
red 3     blue 3
red 4     ...     = red win

Ou :

red 3     blue 5
red 6     blue 5
red 5     blue 2
red 3     blue 5
red 4     blue 3
red 6     blue 6
red 2     blue 3
red 4     ....     = red win

Ou :

red 3     blue 5
red 6     blue 5
red 5     blue 2
red 5     ...      = draw     (5 est une erreur)

En jouant 2 avant, on se bloque par la suite, car nous donnons l'impaire au bleu.

Hello, for 414,524,444. Then you can play 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 = draw. The best solution would be to play either 1 or 5 after.

For suprafix. Because if we play as its :

red 2     blue 2
red 3     blue 5
red 6     blue 5
red 5     blue 3
red 3     blue 2... = draw

But if red play in collumn 3 :

red 3     blue 5
red 6     blue 5
red 5     blue 3
red 5     blue 3
red 2     blue 2
red 2     ....       = red win

Or :

red 3     blue 5
red 6     blue 5
red 5     blue 2
red 3     blue 5
red 4     blue 4
red 4     blue 4
red 3     blue 3
red 4     ...     = red win

Or :

red 3     blue 5
red 6     blue 5
red 5     blue 2
red 3     blue 5
red 4     blue 3
red 6     blue 6
red 2     blue 3
red 4     ....     = red win

Or :

red 3     blue 5
red 6     blue 5
red 5     blue 2
red 5     ...      = draw     (5 is a error)

Playing 2 before it crashes later, because we give the odd blue.```
```Ok, let me come with a straight reg, but where i often got broke, and also messed up breaks when i was second:

1st, why is 1 correct here for red? whats wrong with everything else?
471444167411774267

2nd, why is 1 the ONLY break here? whats wrong with everything else? :)
47144416741177422```
```For relfson, play 4 just later. And it is red win.

27 27 71 65 33 35 65 53 66 53 après : 44 32 44 4 		= red win

27 27 71 65 33 35 65 53 66 53 après : 42 43 62 44 44 77 7	= red win

27 27 71 65 33 35 65 53 66 53 après : 43 42 62 44 44 77 7	= red win

27 27 71 65 33 35 65 53 66 53 après : 46 43 2...		= red win

```
```Ermmm... well tbh its was actually a joke, wasnt really being serious loooool

But yea its a simple draw, 2, 5, 1, whichever way you wish to play it it will always be a draw :)```
```Hello, for 414,524,444. Then you can play 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 7 = draw. The best solution would be to play either 1 or 5 after.

For suprafix. Because if we play as its :

red 2     blue 2
red 3     blue 5
red 6     blue 5
red 5     blue 3
red 3     blue 2... = draw

But if red play in collumn 3 :

red 3     blue 5
red 6     blue 5
red 5     blue 3
red 5     blue 3
red 2     blue 2
red 2     ....       = red win

Or :

red 3     blue 5
red 6     blue 5
red 5     blue 2
red 3     blue 5
red 4     blue 4
red 4     blue 4
red 3     blue 3
red 4     ...     = red win

Or :

red 3     blue 5
red 6     blue 5
red 5     blue 2
red 3     blue 5
red 4     blue 3
red 6     blue 6
red 2     blue 3
red 4     ....     = red win

Or :

red 3     blue 5
red 6     blue 5
red 5     blue 2
red 5     ...      = draw     (5 is a error)

Playing 2 before it crashes later, because we give the odd blue.
__________________________
For relfson play 4 just later. And it is red win.

27 27 71 65 33 35 65 53 66 53 après : 44 32 44 4 		= red win
27 27 71 65 33 35 65 53 66 53 après : 42 43 62 44 44 77 7	= red win
27 27 71 65 33 35 65 53 66 53 après : 43 42 62 44 44 77 7	= red win
27 27 71 65 33 35 65 53 66 53 après : 46 43 2...		= red win ```
```Hello

For : 471444167411774267

If the first player does not play in one. Then the second player plays one. After that it will be enough to go 6 and 2. for an odd column 3 and 5.

For : 47144416741177422

Because after the first player to play one then after he played in 6 or 7. For two odd.```
```Hello, English Legend.

I hope for you that is also a joke this Top-list and "your coments". For my part, as I said it... I understood, but in this manner. It's for this reason  when you speak I remain zen. I know you joke a lot...
Otherwise I would have sent you to Mount Fuji.

Speak seriously of this manner... Is unacceptable. You are not more important than the others. But you know that.
(You saw the reaction of the player є ℓ ємєηт? No comment).
Even programs don't deserve insults, etc...
There are limits. You aren't Nemesis to judge the people. Same for some others...

I think you understand. I trust you.

Have fun!

```
```insults? what insults? if i was insulting a player my post wouldn't have been approved.

I did not insult anyone, its just facts....```
`Gabrielle, are you calling me a programmer? :\$`
```It's enough. I give explanations if someone can understand. Otherwise I'm bored to talk.

There, I'm bored to talk.

End of the discussions of my part.

```
```A post like this, I like.

Looked up doesn't matter if someone can say all the right moves, he wants the reasons :P!

"1st, why is 1 correct here for red? whats wrong with everything else?
471444167411774267

2nd, why is 1 the ONLY break here? whats wrong with everything else?
47144416741177422"

471444167411774267 - This is probably the obvious move people would play (1). The reason is because two odds no? If red didn't go 1 and blue went 1 then he would be about to get two odd threats in 4th and 5th row of both columns 2 and 6. If red goes 1 however this blocks the odd threats and makes it some what easier for red as his only main concern would be the other odd.

Furthermore if red went 1, blue couldn't simply go 5 to try get that odd threat back again as he would have lost the top odd threat on the left. So the reason 1 is the only correct move is to stop the blue player from getting both odd threats on the right and left ( He already has the right).

2 - Yet again red going two would look like a good move due to the fact if blue went on top you couldget the odd higher up. But if blue goes 1 yet again the two odd situation occurs.

3,4,5,6 none of them give red a real attacking chance because as soon as blue gets 1 there's nothing which red can do.
--------------------------------------------------------

Second solution.

47144416741177422

Same as the above.. two odds. Blue already controls two chances to capture an odd on the right hand side. Of course we are aware but not going two red can get a odd. But if blue were to go 2 then red would simple be able to go on top and thus block the odd at the top in 1 or 2. In this situation blue needs to look at 1 and realise if red did grab his odd in 2 blue would be able to go on top and get the first odd. And as said before on the right hand side the second odd can be easily obtained..

Okay my turn to post a style.

436157363373 - Why is 7 the only correct move here, why does everything else lead to either draw or break... I want to know the reasons not where they would go if I went anywhere else but 7. :P

Regards,

Warren```
```Bonjour,

Pourquoi 7? Pour préparer à la suite de la stratégie. Comme sur celle ci. Il prévoit l'impaire. Il obligé son adversaire à jouer en c4 l6 pour lui mettre en c6 l5, pour avoir 3 impaire (c2, c5 et c7).
43 61 57 36 33 73 76 64 44 44 66 32 11 11 17 77 22 22 25 55 5

Après les autres sont facile comme : 43 61 57 36 33 73 73 77 65 5
Ou bien : 43 61 57 36 33 73 77 77 31 22 5

Ce style c'est un draw. Car il y a 2 impaires en c4 et c5. La boule bleu en c6 l4 gâche l'impaire du rouge
43 61 57 36 33 73 66 6

Ce style est aussi un draw : 43 61 57 36 33 73 36 64 44 46 47...

Hello,

7 Why? To prepare for the future strategy. Like this one. It provides the odd. He forced his opponent to play c4 l6 to put him c6 l5, for 3 odd (c2, c5 and c7).
43 61 57 36 33 73 76 64 44 44 66 32 11 11 17 77 22 22 25 55 5

After the others are easy as: 43 61 57 36 33 73 73 77 65 5
Or: 43 61 57 36 33 73 77 77 31 22 5

This style is a draw. Because there are 2 c4 and c5 odd. Blue ball c6 l4 spoils the odd red
43 61 57 36 33 73 66 6

This style is also a draw: 43 61 57 36 33 73 36 64 44 46 47 ...```
`Vive la France!!! <3 <3 <3`
```Hey, element!
Gabrielle don't call you program.^^
She defended you even... zzz...

+)___(+  Good games.

```
```And for don't forget English Legend otherwise he will be jealous. :P
Listen...

There are many ways to insult a person. In this case, when you write for someone "he" use a program. And you are not sure, because this player don't have the sign and he is breakable...
There, you insult the honor of the player. You know what that mean honor? In any sport it's crucial to keep his honor.

So stop to talk man, if you don't understand what you write.

Like Gabrielle, "end of the discussions of my part too". With you.
But I wish you good games.

-.-

```
```I never said i wasn't sure, i said he did, again get your facts right before commenting to my reply, also if you cant understand English fully, you cant exactly defend anyone.

Enjoy :)```
`''Position Analysis Thread'' that's what this thread is about...`
`Am I allowed to post 8x8 positions here? :)`
```This topic called: ''Position Analysis Thread'' is about C4. But in this game...
There are??? Players. Yup!

Respect to all the players.
Otherwise, all the rest is vanity...

Regards,
Pump.

```
```No, its not about c4 and players. Its about position analysis... How you find that hard to understand is beyond me.

Anyway, bring on the 8x8 problems! I wana learn.```
```Yes you have right relfson it's my mistake to have talked about those things in this topic.

//

The topic of Fantagaro was more appropriate.
Especialy to show his lies to English Legend. The facts, like he call them.

I'm very disapointed of this situation.

And if you think relfson the topic about fstal isn't about C4, I will give soon positions analyse about chess. ^^ *it's a joke*

HAVE FUN!!```
```This is 8x8 position. White is player 1 and red is player 2.

```
`http://i.imgur.com/cX7UmvF.png`
```

Move order: 4444445666662333

Red has just played the natural looking c3, but this turns out to be a mistake. What is the evaluation now and what should he have played instead?

```
```Guess what pumpkin?

NO ONE CARES!!! go n cry somewhere else :)```
```Hello,

Oui c'est une erreur, il aurait du jouer en c2. Si vous jouez en étant le premier joueur. Là vous pouvez jouer en c4. L'autre joueur ira surement en c3, puis vous en c8, lui c8, vous c6, lui c6 et vous c4. =  44 44 44 56 66 66 23 33 43 88 66 4

Ou bien : 44 44 44 56 66 66 23 33 48 32 12 45 38 88 88 88 66 63 33 22 2

Cela est une de vos partie dans le championnat?

Hello,

Yes this is an error, it should have played in c2. If you play as the first player. Here you can play c4. The other player will probably c3, then you c8, c8 it, you c6 c6 him and you c4. = 44 44 44 56 66 66 23 33 43 88 66 4

Or: 44 44 44 56 66 66 23 33 48 32 12 45 38 88 88 88 66 63 33 22 2

This is your part in the championship?```
```I think God exist. So, sure he can see what you write and what you think Mason. It's enough for me.

For 8x8 player: "What is the evaluation now?" It's a draw.

"and what should he have played instead?" It was 2 not 3.

BYE.

```
`Well in my view god doesn't exist, so now i feel happier about what i say :)`
```Hmm, yes very good.

@Alphidore: Yes, I break Julien in similar variation.

Now another puzzle:

```
`http://i.imgur.com/K2svWAN.png`
```

4432222244655554

Red have made two mistakes in this opening. Can you spot them? What is the current evaluation? What should he have played instead of d5? And what was the mistake before d5?```
```:D

There's more to see than can ever be seen
More to do than can ever be done
There's far too much to take in here
More to find than can ever be found

AND YOU WANT TO SEE ME CRY???

Good analysis everybody and thanks fstal for this nice topic!```
```Hello,

Le meilleur coup pour le premier joueur (en blanc).

Vous pensez que les erreurs sont en c2 l5 puis en c4 l5. Mais il n'y a pas d'erreur. ```
```Bonjour,

Le meilleur coup pour le premier joueur (en blanc) est de jouer en 7.

Vous pensez que les erreurs sont en c2 l5 puis en c4 l5. Mais il n'y a pas d'erreur.

Style gagnant :
- 44 32 22 22 44 65 55 54 74 45 3...
- 44 32 22 22 44 65 55 54 74 43 57 55 76 67 77...
- 44 32 22 22 44 65 55 54 74 43 55 78 77 86 77...
- 44 32 22 22 44 65 55 54 74 43 55 76 68 68 66 85 48 77 77
- 44 32 22 22 44 65 55 54 74 43 55 76 68 86 66 58 68 77 77

Hello,

The best move for the first player (in white) is to play 7.

You think the errors are then c4 c2 l5 l5. But there is no error.

Winning Style:
- 44 32 22 22 44 65 55 54 74 45 3 ...
- 44 32 22 22 44 65 55 54 74 43 57 55 76 67 77 ...
- 44 32 22 22 44 65 55 54 74 43 55 78 77 86 77 ...
- 44 32 22 22 44 65 55 54 74 43 55 76 68 68 66 85 48 77 77
- 44 32 22 22 44 65 55 54 74 43 55 76 68 86 66 58 68 77 77```
```Hi, the correct answer is indeed 7, which I think is a win for white, in these variations:

443222224465555474435587777788
(```
`http://i.imgur.com/VESe8dx.png)`
```

44322222446555547443558667686677586
(```
`http://i.imgur.com/xlyUy0g.png)`
```

Please let me know if I make mistake!```
```Want to try and revive this thread...try to attract back some good players to the site.

42656646444665
White to Play and Win?
What move and why?```
```because starter need two things:
1. block seconds odd/even-combo from 4 to 7.
2. getting d6 is key to force odd in 1 to 4.

next:
explain the logic to the winning move after: 3267763345
hint: forcing even/odd combo here is not the right answer.```
```Hi all! I had technical difficulties trying to post in this thread a while ago. Hopefully I'm able to now.

"explain the logic to the winning move after: 3267763345"

- Allows Red to effectively go 5 next move if Black does nothing about it.
- Sets up a strong alternate attack in case Black responds with 3 or 4.```
```Sweet, no more tech difficulties. I tried to respond to Supra's first post; I'll do so now (I saved what I wrote).

"2727716533, In this position, why is 3 a winning move for Red but not 2? I wanna hear your thoughts... I have my own thought I won't post yet. ^^"

The answer to your "why" is that 2 makes the B5 square immediately available (and by process of elimination you can tell that that's the only possible reason, without having to even know why B5 will matter). But I think you already knew that and are wanting to know how one might look at the position and see ahead to B5's importance and why 2 would fail.

First thing I glance for: would a horizontal chain of 2 on the left side be enough to eventually form a threat?

Normally, yes, because there are 3 odd squares A3, D3 and E3 that could form the threat. Odd number of odd squares means Red gets the first one.

But next thing I notice is Blue's potential on Row 2. At some point, Red will need to take E2 or F2 to prevent a Blue D2 threat. If Red goes 3 followed by 4, Blue can go 5, followed by Red 6 and Blue 5, so now Blue has the aforementioned E3 square. Blue's 2nd-row minor threat allows her to take the E3 square and reduce Red's potential threat to one with only 2 odd squares, meaning he won't be able to make a 3rd-row left-side threat in the absence of other factors.

Of course, Blue can still do all that if Red goes 3 instead of 2. But we've figured out already that 3rd-row left-side won't be enough for Red to win. He'll either need to combine it with something or he'll need the 5th row. So already, in the heat of making a decision during a game, I'd rule out 2 (given a minute-per-move clock at least). What's the point of 2 if the Row-3 threat won't be sufficient anyway, and going 2 might mess up my offense elsewhere (like on the 5th row which is where B5 would come in)? It seems there's nothing to gain by it and much to lose.

More analysis is needed to actually have the position figured out, but I think that addresses Supra's specific question.```
```Enjoyed reading this thread so wanted to answer the most recent comment...

>"explain the logic to the winning move after: 3267763345"

Winning move here for RED is 6, all other moves will result in BLUE being able to win.  Worst place for RED here would be 2 as it allows BLUE to win in column 4, 5, 6 or 7.```
```The question back then was to explain the logic behind it - not to find the winning love.

What does playing 6 achive, or what does it prevent?
Why is it winning?

We can all memorize winning moves :)

```
```It achieves the initiative in the odd in c3 (row 3), so blue will have to react to it, and red will be able to keep the forcing winning Line.

It prevents blue for playing 4, which is winning for blue in all other moves, since blue suddenly got the tempo it needed to look away from row 3.
After red goes 6, playing 4 for blue will not work, since it helps red to get the odd in row 3.```
```Good evening ladies & gents.

Some really interesting analyses.

As the initial post states 'What is the correct move & why?'

I encountered this playing vs TiTOT (As P1) forcing perfekt 1st & 2nd play (Zugzwang) combos

4,6,6,1,1,7,7,2,7,4,7,7,4,6...

I will concede in this case TiTOT broke me with draw

```
```Another one...

2,3,5,3,5,3,3,6,5,5...

Anti Break/Irreg (7MB) 2353533

Bestest,
XO```
```& last for today:

4,7,1,3,1,3,1,1,3,3,1,3,7,2,7,7

Very strong anti hereonout.```
```hi everyone

Note: C for column and L for line.

Relfson, if player 1 is playing c6 and player 2 is playing c4. Player 1 will not win because he has an odd in c5l3 but because there are two odd in c5l3 and in c6l5.

The odd in c6l5 allows to counter the odd of player 2 in c4l5

326776334564437337712111117 then play 444666
The odd in c6l5 gives the victory to player 1 otherwise player 2 would have won if player 1 would not have had the second odd like this:
326776334564437337712166111167554422

Bonjour,

Note : C pour colonne et L pour ligne.

Relfson, si le joueur 1 joue en c6 et le joueur 2 en c4. Le joueur 1 ne gagnera pas car il a une impaire en c5l3 mais car il y a deux impaires en c5l3 et en c6l5.

L'impaire en c6l5 permet de contrer l'impaire du joueur 2 en c4l5

326776334564437337712111117 ensuite jouer 444666
L'impaire en c6l5 permet de donner la victoire au joueur 1 sinon joueur 2 aurait gagné si le joueur 1 n'aurait pas eu la deuxième impaire comme ça :
326776334564437337712166111167554422

```
```hi PLPAD,

It's been a long time since I played style 417 (or 471).

Player 1 must play in c7l5 to be able to make the odd horizontally and diagonally. like this :
4713131133137277773166224222
Player 2 cannot therefore play in c6l3.
4713131133137277773166224222666655544

If player 1 is not playing c7l5 then player 2 wins like this:
4713131133137277377166224226
or: 4713131133137277377155224226
or: 471313113313727737712242262666665544

The ball in c7l5 is therefore important to be able to make its odd in c5l3 if player 2 is playing in c613.

Cela fait longtemps que je n'ai pas jouer style 417 (ou 471).

Le joueur 1 doit jouer en c7l5 pour pouvoir faire l'impaire à l'horizontale et en diagonal. comme ceci :
4713131133137277773166224222
Le joueur 2 ne peut donc pas jouer en c6l3.
4713131133137277773166224222666655544

Si le joueur 1 ne joue pas en c7l5 alors le joueur 2 gagne comme cela :
4713131133137277377166224226
ou : 4713131133137277377155224226
ou : 471313113313727737712242262666665544

La boule en c7l5 est donc importante pour pouvoir faire sont impaire en c5l3 si le joueur 2 joue en c613.

```