easier said than done

Not that I care anymore. But in the Requests forum, there's a person who made some suggestions to c4 - and if more people would back up the idea FoD might do something about it... 

Sadly programs are allowed here, but the opponent is supposed to know they are playing against one. I'm not confident the automatic program detection is doing its job so I suggested a visual signal to all parties when the window loses focus. The idea is that if they switch to a new window regularly they might be using a prog. Other sites already provide this feature and it works. It should be easy for flyo to do, please go and add your support to try and make it happen. The thread is in page 2 the Requests forum and is titled 'blinking connect 4'. If this site is cleaned up maybe the good guys will come back?

They might would.... 

Only way to play connect 4 without someone cheating is to play them in real life... You never know if someone uses a program so it's really no point... I remember using program bugs on peopel who didn't have the program sign and I used the mustrum bug and broke them... they used the same moves as the program... so Flyordie can't clearly catch all the programers... and when people talk on msn people get a program sign I seen many great players had it...

Geez Mike, read before you come with some useless information. 
The new "might use prog"-system is a great failure. But Captain Wow has made a request for FoD to make a blinking name or something, like Blip og Kurnik, etc. that way we would be able to see the people using prog in every move, and chatting on MSN is not an excuse because if one don't want to be called a cheater one can just chat inbetween the games... You can check the forum yourself and back it up, Captain Wow has explained where

No system is ever going to be 100%, but improvements are still worthwhile.

Some will program because they think they can get away with it undetected. Some will stop if they think they can't do that anymore. Not everyone revels in being branded a programmer. 

It's normally obvious when someone is just chatting. At least this way its up to you to make up your own mind, and they don't get a sign. 

If the games were speeded up then maybe there wouldn't be so much time to MSN. But that's another point....

good points Captain

Making the game faster and the blinking window would definetly be improvements. But the main problem remains
that cheating (or using a program) is allowed by FOD.
So even when they detect someone who uses a program, nothing is done about, because it is not forbidden.

I have requested several times that this should be the case, but so far I had no response.

OK, then please explain to me, what is your problem with programs, why should it be forbidden. You do not need to play with them, you can simply ignore them, and play real players.
If someone wants to play against a program, why do you think we should not allow this? Why should we also not allow two programs to play against each other?

OP

I've already got Mustrum. I don't need to come here, wait 10 mins for an opponent and then play a slow game against it. 

I avoid anyone with a progger sign (a lot are runners too). I bet there's more again without signs tho. I've played against people who takes 40 secs on the first move, 30 secs on the next etc... I've watched mustrum break games. If I could see someone was switching windows on every move and I thought they were using a program I would avoid them in the future too.

What's the problem with making this site honest?

We have made this site honest by doing our best to sign the player whom we suspect to use programs, thus giving you the possibility to decide if you wish to play against a program or not.
If there is a blinking method that some of you suggest, you will not know BEFORE the match, that the one who you are to play with will be using a program or not, therefore it would be harder to avoid them.

What's your problem with that?

OP

I tell you what my problem is with the use of programs, OP.

1) not all players are detected by your detecting program, so yes, those cheaters cost me points;

2) "thus giving you the possibility to decide if you wish to play against a program or not" > your system
is not perfect, hence above quote is useless;

3) usage of a program to win is just against all rules of sportsmenship. It's the same as using drugs to perform better in sport games, it is just weak and fraud ;

4) I choose indeed my opponents, but I do not choose to compete with people who use a program instead of their brain. As you know this is a rated game, so all the points these ppl gather are fake, and in that way they seriously cause damage to me. If you want to allow them to use a program, take away their rating, that way they are not being disadvantuous towards fair players.

5) it is just not fun. If you understand game OP, you will know that program players are perfect, so it is not fun to know it is impossible to break them.

6) If I want to play a program, I'll play on my comp, I don't need to go to any site for that.

It just makes no sense to create a rated game and allow the use of programs.
Or you make the game unrated (or an unrated room, I don't care) and then you can allow these programmers.
Or you just make it against the rules.

Ŧħē_ИāΜēĿē$$ 

It sounds like it's not working well enough! 

Isn't the blinking method meant to be in addition to the existing one? So there would still be signs for those who use them all the time. And as I said before, if I was convinced someone was using a prog, and they didn't have a sign (yet), then I would avoid them in the future. 

If it helps spot them then great. If it does reduce the amount of progging then great. Your site will be even more honest. If it is easy to do why not give it a try?


P.S.  There's a time delay with that sign so you still end up playing new proggers (or more likely proggers with new nicks) anyway. I played someone I was suspicious about afterwards and they didn't get the sign until the next day. I wasn't actually sure if they were using one or not, but if I could have seen them switching windows that would have helped.

P.P.S If some one uses a program against you and you don't know about it is that cheating?

1) not all players are detected by your detecting program, so yes, those cheaters cost me points;

2) "thus giving you the possibility to decide if you wish to play against a program or not" > your system
is not perfect, hence above quote is useless;

noone said it's perfect, but if we cannot detect all programs, how can you expect to ban them all?

3) usage of a program to win is just against all rules of sportsmenship. It's the same as using drugs to perform better in sport games, it is just weak and fraud ;

It is the program who wins, not the person who is using the program.  It is the program who has a level of skill that is supposed to be displayed by the rating, not the person obviously.
It is your problem if you think that the player is winning not the program....

4) I choose indeed my opponents, but I do not choose to compete with people who use a program instead of their brain. As you know this is a rated game, so all the points these ppl gather are fake, and in that way they seriously cause damage to me. If you want to allow them to use a program, take away their rating, that way they are not being disadvantuous towards fair players.

It is not fake, as a program definitely has a skill level that is reflceted by the rating. The program sign means that the rating reflects the skill of the program and not the user of the program.

5) it is just not fun. If you understand game OP, you will know that program players are perfect, so it is not fun to know it is impossible to break them.

then do not use a program, and do not play anyone that is using a program. Play for fun.... As you wish, it's up to you...

6) If I want to play a program, I'll play on my comp, I don't need to go to any site for that.

Same as above, don't play them then...

OP

P.S. There's a time delay with that sign so you still end up playing new proggers 

Of course we cannot tell about a new player if he/she will use a program or not before the very first game.
If you want to avoid such beginner programs, play against players with established rating that can be distinguished by the lack of ~ sign next to their ratings.

OP 

Isn't the blinking method meant to be in addition to the existing one? So there would still be signs for those who use them all the time. 

It would just cause more problems like "he has a sign but does not blink" or "he is blinking but does not have a sign"
so it's not a good idea to confuse a normal player with different methods that could differ. 

OP

Well OP, it is only suggestions...

FoD is one of the prefered c4 gaming sites. But as the progs gets better and there's no way to tell a programmer from a fair playing person with a program bug, the fair players will either stop playing or go somewhere else. And if FoD should "choose" players, I would say you should target the fair players because it's them who's going to hold the longest in the c4 game instead of the program players, because they don't need to perfect anything, they can leave and come back as they want to as long as the programs is allowed, so there will just be a lot of leaving and someday c4 will die here aswell as some other c4 sites.
I don't know how FoD has been prefered in the past, but now I prefer to play anywhere else than FoD and I think most others think like that aswell. The intention of the programming detection is nice and it's somehow a new thinking, but the problem is that people just want the old fashioned ways to detect wether a person uses progs or not, and if it's not a big problem, I think you should give it a try with a blinking name or something.  

go somewhere else

where they do not deal with this issue, no program sign, everyone thinks that there is no program players, everyone is happy there. If that's what you need, then...

people just want the old fashioned ways to detect wether a person uses progs or not

what is this old fashioned way? Not dealing with them at all?

I have just explained why is the blinking system not a good idea. Please read my previous posts.

Thanks,

OP

The squiggle only lasts for 20 games and this guy didn't have one. I don't think you realise how much progging goes on in this site. I also don't think you realise how unhappy people are with this either.

Why did you do work to accommodate programs? Why not just ban their use? You seriously want to consider that people are staying away from this site because of cheating, running and bad language. Some of the proggers are actually decent players and would continue to use this site even if progs were banned. 

OPERATOR,

I appreciate the way you keep replying in a patiently and polite way to our questions and suggestions.

Though I'm afraid you are missing the point a bit.
The point is:

How do you explain/justify a rated game which allows the use of a program?

This is clearly 

disadvantuous

 towards fair players. You cannot just ignore that by keeping on saying that we can choose who to play or that it is not the player but the program that wins. This is absolutely a failure in the FOD procedure. It is like Madnessa says, many good fair players (who do not use programs) are getting tired of this and just leave...

 

Do you think that if program use is not allowed there will not be any program use?

Seems like those of you who do not like programs canont even agree on what should be done about them. Some say ban them, some say don't ban them as they are decent players, some say put a blinking sign to them...

I repeat once again that unfortunately we cannot satisfy the claims of every one of our dearest players. We have done our best to find a solution to the program players. Now some of you might not agree that this is the best. You might think that you have a better solution. Well, most players would not agree with you either...

So, there is no perfect solution, I have only one advice, if you don't like programs, don't play them (we have done everything we could do in order to help you avoid them if you wish so).

OP

How do you explain/justify a rated game which allows the use of a program?

Did you read my previous posts?
If a program has higher skill level then you, then it will have higher rating. Irrelevant who is using this program. The program sign means that the rating is corresponding to the skill of a computer program, not the player who is next to the machine.

are getting tired of this and just leave...

Where are they leaving? show me a more useful program play policy, please. 
Program play is a natural ingredient of any online board game. You cannot get rid of it. You can claim that there is no program play on a site, but you are wrong...

OP

are getting tired of this 

tired of what?
tired of playing programs? (why play them then?)
tired of playing fair players? (why?)
tired of being beaten by a program? (why play them then?)

OP

If a program has higher skill level then you, then it will have higher rating

 > Every program has a higher skill then human player, that is why it is frustrating.
If the program would be less good then human players, who would care for them? These programs are perfect play. 

tired of playing programs? (why play them then?)

 > because they are playing here... 

show me a more useful program play policy, please

 > make it forbidden, don't 

you

 read my posts?

Program play is a natural ingredient of any online board game

 > I beg your pardon? What is natural on a program? My brain, that is natural.

Listen, it looks to me we are not on the same line. I think you just don't get the point, and I think that is because you do not play connect4, at least not in a way we play it, but I don't blame you for that. 

Too bad many players feel the same way as I do, and too bad no changes are made.

>because they are playing here...

there are far more no-program players, why not play those instead? Programs are playing here because other players tend to play them. If you do not play them, they will leave... Thats the nature of a multiplayer game.

> make it forbidden, don't you read my posts?

Good idea, why didn't we think of this before...

> I beg your pardon? What is natural on a program? My brain, that is natural.

Did you read what I wrote? On an online board game there will be always program players. That is the nature of humans, they will always try to find a way with programs, even if you do not allow it. Therefore it is better and more honest to allow it in some form, but warn the player of it, than to forbid and claim that there is no program play on a site.
You might agree with this or not, but we have more experience with this issue I think.

<Listen, it looks to me we are not on the same line. I think you just don't get the point

I could say the same about you...

>Too bad many players feel the same way as I do, and too bad no changes are made.

No changes as we have had no implementable suggestions that will help in any way as well. 

OP

Lol. We are different people from different countries and we haven't got together to orchestrate this. Don't you won't different opinions?

I've never had a problem with proggers on other sites, only here where it's a big problem. It's quite common among the masters and above.

The trouble with tolerating programs, or saying do nothing cos they're inevitable, is that their use then flourishes. There are players who don't need them, but they use them for kicks because they can get away with it. They see how many points they can get, have races with each other etc..  

I would like to see programs banned. I think most that use them now would still play here, but they may not be grand masters anymore. 

Personally I wouldn't give someone a permanent ban. If the program detection catches someone (genuinely) why not punish them by muting them or taking away all their points like you do for bad language or point banking?

yep OP im just saying that you should try to find a way to block program but youve done your best to this site ty



Cyclonic_blues.

OP,

you are becoming a bit cynical and I don't think I like it. It is not because you are a so called operator that you must think you can outsmart me, especially when I think you  don't even understand this game. Again, I don't blame you for that, you cannot know all the games on FOD,
I mean I only know one, but heII I know it good and far more better then you. I know what lives amongst the players there, and you don't. That is not critism, you cannot be at every place, I know that, it is just
a fact. Why then don't you take advise from me?

Suggestions has been made by various players, I suggest you read them through thoroughly, you might learn something from it.

I do read your posts. Do you read mine? You still didn't provide me with an answer on a quiet simple question:

How do you explain/justify a rated game which allows the use of a program and the fact that this is clearly disadvantuous towards fair players? 

My guess is that you know this is not right (I hope you do), but you have to follow guidelines as well, I guess.

quote

[Programs are playing here because other players tend to play them. If you do not play them, they will leave...]

unquote

Nope they don't, because someone is always going to play them anyway, I guess you can call that the nature of men as well.
Some of them are even proud on having the ! sign.

If you think about it, FOD's vision is kinda hypocrite. They allow programs but at the same time they say "watch out, he programs". How do you defend that?
Either you allow it completely, either you don't allow it. Now that's not too hard to get now is it?

Now I'm gonna stop, because I'm getting cynical myself ;)

Thnx for the vivid discussion though...It is not over by the way 

Ŧħē_ИāΜēĿē$$

"How do you explain/justify a rated game which allows the use of a program and the fact that this is clearly disadvantuous towards fair players? "

I suggest you read my previous posts.

OP

"because someone is always going to play them anyway"

so what is the problem if someone wants to play them?
I can only repeat myself: if you don't like them, don't play them.

OP

if you don't like them, don't play them

I don't play them, told you before.
I don't like because they fraud the rating system, because they chase away other good players and basically you should not like them too, because they give FOD a very bad name.
Ŧħē_ИāΜēĿē$$

Operator: Does this mean I can use a bot playing for me 24/7? 

I quote the rules: "Any form of unsportsmanlike behaviour will not be tolerated". Am I the only one finding that statement contradictory?

Yes, you are.

OP

Then ... why isn't point banking allowed?

On an online board game there will always be players point banking. That is the nature of humans, they will always point bank, even if you do not allow it. Therefore it is better and more honest to allow it in some form. 

You could always add a point banking sign. That'll solve it!

And while we're still at it; why even have rules at all? It's the nature of humans to break rules too. 

I'm not sorry for plagiating your speech, it was just too oh-so-delicately irresistibly appealing. 

Do I feel cynicism and hipocrisy? (It's a rhetorical question.

Love,
Eliten

Your Way Of Detecting Who Cheats Is A Complete Failure And Many Would Agree. So Many Players Use A Program But Don't Have The Sign And We Play Them, Lose Our Points And You Say Its Our Fault For Playing Them When We Have No Clue Who We Are Playing. 

You Mentioned Operator That:

"If a program has higher skill level then you, then it will have higher rating" - That Is Very Stereotypical, Ovbiosuly From That Comment You Definalty Don't Know Much About What Happens In Connect4. 

"tired of playing programs? (why play them then?)" - You Keep Saying If We Don't Like Playing Programmers Don't Play Them But How Is Anyone Suppose To Know Whether Or Not They Are Playing A Programmer Or Not? 

"show me a more useful program play policy, please" - Ban It, Just Ban The Players IP Address' You Know That Uses It Instead Of Giving In And Saying Sure Cheat What The Heck... You'll Have More Success That Way Than The Stupid ! Sign Policy Or Any Other Policy.

"Program play is a natural ingredient of any online board game" - Either You Use A Program On A Game On Flyordie Operator Or You Have No Idea What People Want.. People Want To Play A Game Where They Play Others For Fun But Using Their 

Brains

. If Programs Are A Natural Ingredient Here Guess Point Banking And Swearing Etc Is Too.

"It is the program who wins, not the person who is using the program. It is the program who has a level of skill that is supposed to be displayed by the rating, not the person obviously. It is your problem if you think that the player is winning not the program" - What Its Our Problem? Why You Defending The Programmers So Much Or Is It Me? Try Telling The People Who Program That It Their Porgram That Has The Points Not Them, All The Programmers Believe They Have Actually Won And Won The Points Not The Program. It's Unsportsmanlike But Your So Blind To See That.

You Rules Say That Programmers Must Let You Know If They Prog, When The Hell Does Any Programmer Do That?

Operator All We Are Doing Is Giving You Suggestions And Ideas And Your Throwing Them Back In Our Faces. We Know Whats Good For The Game Because We Play It As You Obviously Don't. You Keep Defending The Unfair Players And Keep Putting The Blame On Us Fair Players Which I Really Don't Understand. One Question If I May... Why Did You Allow Programs In The First Place? Must Of Had A Good Reason Im Really Curious Behind That Rule.. Ain't Anyone Else?

>  And You Say Its Our Fault For Playing Them When We Have No Clue Who We Are Playing. 

The contraction of 

it is

 is spelt 

it's

. Please be more careful with your spelling in the future. Thank you

JUST SHUT UP AND LET THE FFFFFFING OPERATOR RUN HIS SITE FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Im sick of people always thinkin they run this F'ING site....

>I quote the rules: "Any form of unsportsmanlike behaviour will not be tolerated". Am I the only one finding that statement contradictory?<
No, you're not.

At first: OP, I read your posts, so don't ask me that question, it is kind of annoying. Please read mine thouroughly. I understand the logic of your posts, but I think it is quite ignorant and totally against my own logic.
You are inside a discussion, and therefore it isn't enough to simply repeat your former posts, you need to come into play with the opinions of those who are discussing with you. They are trying to improve the system.

It became clearly visible that you don't know much about the game. Connect four is solved, that means that any player can force a win if he begins. So the aim for a good player is to "break" the opponent, that means to make him lose his start. That's where it gets difficult - programs always win if they start, but they are quite weak playing second. However, they can punish every single mistake.
So you can't lose with a program. Just as an exposition.

Yes, it is human nature to do anything to win, even playing unfair with a program, supported by the anonymity of the internet. You are right in this point, but you are gathering the wrong things out of it. You have to stop those who play with a program because they cheat, don't they? Do you know any game where cheating is allowed? Doping or corruption should be allowed in football, because it is in human nature? The teams that are doped should participate in the leagues, and if they are better, well then they are better, if everybody knows that they cheat it is ok? I'm just trying to show you that your argumentation is simply not right.

>Program play is a natural ingredient of any online board game.< 
You're right again. And again the wrong conclusions. Not all natural ingredients are good, are they? There are also natural "ingredients" on the internet like violence or viruses - but shouldn't they be forbidden? If a Virus always turns off your computer as soon as you click, do you tell yourself: "Well, no need to complain, it's a natural ingredient of the internet usage."? Cheaters are like the viruses of connect four, because they take the points and the fun of those who are playing honestly. They should be filtered, just as Kaspersky or AntiVir does. But as you cannot declare a new player a cheater immediately, you need to filter later or as soon as you notice that he is cheating.
By the way - in the time when cheaters don't have the sign, how do players know that they are playing against a program? 

>It is the program who wins, not the person who is using the program. It is the program who has a level of skill that is supposed to be displayed by the rating, not the person obviously. It is your problem if you think that the player is winning not the program.<
And again you are right :-) But why do you then take the circuitous way and let a player sit between program and game? If you want to have programs on your site, install a bot that can be called  with one mouseclick. Many people would be happier.

As I'm playing the game for quite a while now, I can give you some advice from my treasure of experience:
- Every player wants to play against a human opponent, not against a program
- A blinking symbol that shows a changing task is the best detection system. Of course you can also trick it, but few know how
- The program sign is a good invention, but as far as noone knows the criteria, noone can really assess it
- Pages like Kurnik, Devilplay or Blip work well and simply ban cheaters. There are far more good players and a cheater is detected fast by the blinking thing. As FOD has a huge potential and many players, it would attract even more players, mostly the good ones if it was faster and with less cheaters

Full stop.

>JUST SHUT UP AND LET THE FFFFFFING OPERATOR RUN HIS SITE FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Im sick of people always thinkin they run this F'ING site....<

This post can be seen as offtopic and dumb.

>Do you know any game where cheating is allowed? 

I know some sites where using programs is allowed, and not classified as cheating. not only ours.

>Doping or corruption should be allowed in football, because it is in human nature? The teams that are doped should participate in the leagues, and if they are better, well then they are better, if everybody knows that they cheat it is ok? I'm just trying to show you that your argumentation is simply not right.

In professional sport everyone is doped, some get caught, some not, but we are getting offtopic ;)

>And again you are right But why do you then take the circuitous way and let a player sit between program and game? If you want to have programs on your site, install a bot that can be called with one mouseclick. Many people would be happier.

Some people are happy if they can sit between program and game. Why do you want to take this pleasure from them?

>- Every player wants to play against a human opponent, not against a program

not true, several human players play against program at their own free will here, while they also have the possibility to play humans. If you want to know why, ask them. This is the main thing: as long as some people want to play against programs, why should we remove this possibility?

>- A blinking symbol that shows a changing task is the best detection system. Of course you can also trick it, but few know how

No, ours is the best ;)

>- The program sign is a good invention

thanks you for the acknowledgment

>- Pages like Kurnik, Devilplay or Blip work well and simply ban cheaters. There are far more good players and a cheater is detected fast by the blinking thing. As FOD has a huge potential and many players, it would attract even more players, mostly the good ones if it was faster and with less cheaters

the sites you mention do not have too much c4 players, so there are less cheaters/program players there as well obviously. They do ban cheaters, as we do, but they do not ban program play, at least the ones I know...

"Any form of unsportsmanlike behaviour will not be tolerated."

I gotta take OP's side on this one, i don't see a contradiction.  Sportsmanship has nothing to do with programming.  It's being gracious and respectful.  Someone could be a programmer and still say things like, "Good game" and "Nice job" and they'd technically be a good sportsman.  And in fact i have met some very nice cheaters (though not many).

Without programmers there wouldn't be FlyOrDie! Think about that

Sportsmanship is about being graceful and respectful? Are you sure you don't have any English blood in you? We love clean cut, well spoken sportsmen. If they're also a total loser then we love them even more.

Some proggers try to avoid getting the sign and want to use a prog without you knowing. I don't think that's respectful.

to o_O_loil: great essay mate, I'm glad i see you feel the same way as I do. By the way I'm back into the game ;)

to fstal: "Good game" and "Nice job" has NOTHING to do with sportsmanship .

to Jops: "Without programmers there wouldn't be FlyOrDie!" > You will have to explain that, because
I don't get that, unless you mean with programmers ppl who are technically skilled to develop webpages etc. That
is not the same a the programmers we are talking about (ppl who use a program to cheat)

to OP: 

In professional sport everyone is doped, some get caught, some not, but we are getting offtopic

I'm sorry, but that is just nonsense. First off, not every professional sporter is doped, and even if they
were, what does that have to do with c4?

This is the main thing: as long as some people want to play against programs, why should we remove this possibility?

So wrong, let me reverse that: As long as you allow programs they always will be used.

And believe me, no one wants to play against programs. They come to this site to play against human players and test their skills against them. If they would like to play against a program, they would play against one, not against a human player hiding behind a program.

Ŧħē_ИāΜēĿē$$ 

>So wrong, let me reverse that: As long as you allow programs they always will be used.

So wrong. Some years ago, when programming was not allowed, there were much more program players... Seems like marking them has a stronger deterrent than forbidding.

>And believe me, no one wants to play against programs. 

I don't beleive you as I see that players play against programs even if they are marked. Why do they play if they don't want to? There are enough human players.

>They come to this site to play against human players and test their skills against them. If they would like to play against a program, they would play against one, not against a human player hiding behind a program.

You speak like there are only programs here, which is not true, there are mostly human players here. So there is nothing to prevent you from only playing humans if you wish.

OP

OPERATOR programmers sometimes make nicknames and get like 100 points on them and they dont get a sign so wen i play him he gets red and wins and some of the programmers actually dont want to program they just do it cuz they have no choice and many ppl already program











W.F.

> they just do it cuz they have no choice 

?

Operator, I've read your posts and some of your statements aren't correct. It is not easy to avoid playing a programmer here. It is an inevitable part of playing on flyordie, no matter how many precautions you take. 

The sign helps you know that someone might use a program, but that's as far as it goes. I doubt many use them all the time, and you can never be sure if they are using one in the game against you. If, as you suggest, you don't play them there are more again that do not have signs. Firstly the sign is only temporary and goes after a few games. I've seen known programmers openly discussing how to get rid of it via public chat and then telling their mates when it does disappear. The onus is on us to remember who they are for the times when their signs are temporarily removed. Secondly there is a steady stream of new programmers and it takes time for the sign to appear. This is not just new nicks or brand new players. For some reason existing players who didn't use them will start doing so. Maybe it's because its so common and so accepted. Maybe it's because they can see other people doing it and so do it themselves, I guess that's human nature. Thirdly there are those who haven't been caught yet. Admittedly this can't really be proved. But you can see the accusations in other threads and for some of those people concerned I can believe it.

I don't know if you are taking the company line on this issue or if you genuinely believe it's possible to avoid playing programmers if you want to. You should be evaluating how well the system is working so far, and if it needs improving, instead of closing your mind and saying problem solved. Part of this should be listening to what people are telling you.

Noone said that problem solved. Any useful suggestion is appreciated.
I tried to explain why most of your suggesstions are not implementable.
You say that the problem is that you cannot avoid, as the detection system is not perfect. Well that might be true, but then again: how do you expect to ban those who are not detected by the system?
How can we do anything if we do not know who to do it to?

But if you know better who is using a program than the system, than problem solved for you, as you know who to avoid. We try to give some directions for the rest...

OP

That's a lot better. As a representative of flyordie it's about time you showed more moderation in your posts.

from 

Webster's New World Dictionary of the 

American

 Language

, Second College Edition, 1978

sportsman-- 

1. a man who is interested in or takes part in sports, esp. in hunting, fishing, etc.

2. a person who can take loss or defeat without complaint, or victory without gloating, and who treats his opponents with fairness, generosity, courtesy, etc.

Why are you using an American dictionary?!

because someone commented that i sounded british in my last post.  

What should i use instead, a Finnish dictionary??  I don't need people like you and Nameless-- who are both still learning english-- to tell 

me

 what an english word means or doesn't mean :p

A British of course, don't be daft

Yea i'd use a British one...if America didn't completely own britain on the 4th of July :p :p :p

Fstal,

saying gg or nice job doesn't make you a "sport". I know ppl who say gg after a game and still run, is that sportsmanship behaviour? Sportmanship behaviour is about treating your opponent with respect, regardless of what the result of the game is.

I might not be able to define it in english, but I do know the concept in my own languange.

And I might not speak or write english in a way you do it, I will always be far more advanced in your languange then you will be in mine. How about that, nah! ;)

by the way, we are getting a little bit off topic now...

to get back on topc:

One little remark for OPERATOR:

you say that program play is requested by some players, and I quote  

This is the main thing: as long as some people want to play against programs, why should we remove this possibility?

Take a quick look at all the posts made on the forum, at other boardgames like chess or gomoku, what is the main thing ppl complain about? Right, program players. So don't tell me that ppl like to play against them.

Ŧħē_ИāΜēĿē$$

Is it you who makes the decision on our requests/suggestions?

What about the idea of speeding up those balls? I'm all for this one.

> how do you expect to ban those who are not detected by the system?
> How can we do anything if we do not know who to do it to?

Appoint a few experienced players to be admins for a certain game.

>don't tell me that ppl like to play against them.

I tell you that there are definitely many people who play against them, though there is clearly a possibility not to play them, but play against human players.
Why do they do so if they do not like to play them?

I tell you for the 1000th and last time: if you don't like them, don't play them.
If you want to play against a human player I am pretty sure you can find one. When I go to a c4 room, there are around 2-3 signed players there out of 100. 

OP

>Appoint a few experienced players to be admins for a certain game.

We have appointed experienced players as moderators, but their task is not to decide who is using a program... Since it would not work that way.

> We have appointed experienced players as moderators, but their task is not to decide who is using a program... Since it would not work that way.

It's working on other sites. Why wouldn't it work here?

Show me a player that all of you will accept as a trustworthy person, who is capable of telling who is using a program or not.
Then all we need is that this player is willing to sacrifice his/her freetime for the only purpose to watch games all dy long to decide who is using a program or not.

There might be some players who are capable of telling who is using a program by watching a game. The problem is that they will need to watch not only 1 game or two, but can do this all day...

So, show me a person who is willing to do this, is capable of doing this, and the majority of players will accept him/her.

Thx

OP

>It's working on other sites.

example?

****.se has pretty good game admins in connect-4 right now. All though they were unfortunately not chosen because of their experience with the game, they do a good job. On the plus side, regular players are voluntary supporting the admins with movies and screenshots of the cheaters on pretty much all sites where the admins are willing to take a look at the evidence.

There's one big problem with blip. The admins need evidence for every action they take, even though they know for sure that someone is cheating. 

Proving someone is using i.e. mustrum or velena is rather easy, but proving some other programs which vary their playing styles could be quite difficult. An expreienced player who knows what is human play and what isn't, who knows most of the players, doesn't in my opinion need to get more evidence than his own observations and his co-admins' approvals to take action.

It is indeed very difficult to find an experienced, trustworthy and willing player, but it isn't impossible. There are some very devoted players out there.

In addition to your current system (whatever it is), the blinking symbol, as mentioned earlier in this topic, would be very useful when detecting and proving someone is cheating.

This works pretty much the same here, you send proof to admins (as screenshots usually), they will deal with it.

Now how do you prove program play by screenshots?

Unfortunatley I do not speak Swedish, so I cannot check their program play policy....

OP

i'll be the appointed person to detect cheats, how bout that?  I could do between 10PM - 3AM  GMT.  Someone else can do it on a shift before that.  Or we could have several appointed people: me, blue, loil, eliten, jops, nameless, steel, jon, and whatever other top players are here often, maybe bradspelaren, spyders, muggaz, jerome, jp, etc.  The rule could be, at least 2 of us have to agree that someone cheats (without the rest of us disagreeing) for it to be official.  Would we be right 100% of the time?  Probably not, but i say 99%, which is much higher than the current system.

> This works pretty much the same here, you send proof to admins (as screenshots usually), they will deal with it.

I rarely see admins in connect-4 here. How are we suppose to get in touch with them? Not that it really matters anyway, since program playing is allowed here.


> Now how do you prove program play by screenshots?

I don't know if it's possible to prove program play by screenshots, seems kind of interminable to me. I'd rather just record the game to a video file.


> Unfortunatley I do not speak Swedish, so I cannot check their program play policy....

It's strictly forbidden to program play there.

why doesnt fod just make a non rated room for c4 because no1 would have a reason to program there and people can play fair there.


D-dog 

>OK, then please explain to me, what is your problem with programs, why should it be forbidden. You do not need to play with them, you can simply ignore them, and play real players.

dude if some1 wanted to play against a program we dont need to go on ur site we can download it and play against it.

i rest my case :)

if u dont mind ill use it simple

Lol. Cyclonic says he doesnt like programmers and now he is one himself. I played him 2 todays ago when he was a blue shield, now he is a master with a sign. Seen this happen before. Moaning about it but give em enough time and they turn. 'Others are doing it so I will', it feeds on itself. Flyo is good for creating new programmers.

programs should not be aloud because then whats the point of having connect four then. why not just turn connect four into a gambling game if ur red u win if ur blue u lose. because thats all it is for programs.

the one and only,
D-dog

i might aswell just use it if the ops dont care 

Many people including me as mentioned this before, but why don't the programers just get banned or have their own room like room 3 for instance. No one uses that room accept point bankers...

because mike i like that room ;)

lol just kiding :p
but why not just make a room that only certain players that fod sees in there eyes dont program or sothing.

im sorry operator but why did u change the rules the only thing it did was make ppl quit i dont see people come here as much as the old days ever one quit because of this new rule:(